1 00:00:08,810 --> 00:00:05,660 welcome to tales from the rabbit hole 2 00:00:11,299 --> 00:00:08,820 I'm your host Mick West today's guest is 3 00:00:13,759 --> 00:00:11,309 Willy Willy is the person that I 4 00:00:16,129 --> 00:00:13,769 interviewed for the preface of my book 5 00:00:19,900 --> 00:00:16,139 escaping the rabbit hole he is a very 6 00:00:22,370 --> 00:00:19,910 interesting story he used to be a very 7 00:00:24,590 --> 00:00:22,380 strong believer in a lot of conspiracies 8 00:00:26,990 --> 00:00:24,600 including the chemtrails conspiracy 9 00:00:29,509 --> 00:00:27,000 theory and he eventually found his way 10 00:00:31,130 --> 00:00:29,519 out in part with thanks to the people 11 00:00:34,700 --> 00:00:31,140 and Method bunk but also and other 12 00:00:36,979 --> 00:00:34,710 forums like above top secret he has a 13 00:00:38,990 --> 00:00:36,989 very interesting story about how he got 14 00:00:41,299 --> 00:00:39,000 in and out of the rabbit hole and he had 15 00:00:44,810 --> 00:00:41,309 some interesting thoughts on how his 16 00:00:50,990 --> 00:00:44,820 perspective has changed since he escaped 17 00:00:53,420 --> 00:00:51,000 the ramen ramen really welcome to tales 18 00:00:55,670 --> 00:00:53,430 from the rabbit hole thank you it's good 19 00:00:56,689 --> 00:00:55,680 to be here very good to see you again is 20 00:00:57,889 --> 00:00:56,699 this the first time I've actually seen 21 00:01:00,619 --> 00:00:57,899 you we talked on the phone when I 22 00:01:03,319 --> 00:01:00,629 interviewed you two years ago today you 23 00:01:05,929 --> 00:01:03,329 say it was exactly to the day it's kind 24 00:01:09,140 --> 00:01:05,939 of a funny coincidence yeah and of 25 00:01:11,210 --> 00:01:09,150 course you are the person who is the 26 00:01:14,450 --> 00:01:11,220 prologue to my book he's gaping the 27 00:01:16,130 --> 00:01:14,460 rabbit hole and you're the interview I 28 00:01:17,660 --> 00:01:16,140 did with you then and the kind of a 29 00:01:19,940 --> 00:01:17,670 little mini chapter that I wrote about 30 00:01:22,910 --> 00:01:19,950 it I think really set the tone for the 31 00:01:26,060 --> 00:01:22,920 book yeah cool it worked out like that 32 00:01:30,499 --> 00:01:26,070 yeah it did some people actually they 33 00:01:35,359 --> 00:01:30,509 asked me if you were a made-up person or 34 00:01:37,100 --> 00:01:35,369 some people asked if if you were me some 35 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:37,110 people thought that I was writing this 36 00:01:42,380 --> 00:01:39,090 prologue as if you know I'm telling my 37 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:42,390 own story and of course you know there's 38 00:01:49,910 --> 00:01:48,090 nothing nothing at all like me no but it 39 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:49,920 was really really great to have your 40 00:01:53,929 --> 00:01:51,810 story I think to just to open the book 41 00:01:55,249 --> 00:01:53,939 so that's kind of like just curve you 42 00:01:59,450 --> 00:01:55,259 know can I wanted to touch base with you 43 00:02:01,550 --> 00:01:59,460 it's been two years yeah and so like you 44 00:02:04,550 --> 00:02:01,560 know like maybe just we'll go through 45 00:02:06,740 --> 00:02:04,560 the story again and then just see you 46 00:02:08,839 --> 00:02:06,750 know is that anything changed and you 47 00:02:11,449 --> 00:02:08,849 know what's what's how your perspective 48 00:02:12,740 --> 00:02:11,459 has changed and how it fit in with the 49 00:02:13,670 --> 00:02:12,750 other things that we've learned since 50 00:02:17,020 --> 00:02:13,680 there 51 00:02:21,679 --> 00:02:17,030 okay the short version of that story 52 00:02:23,899 --> 00:02:21,689 starts with me getting into the 53 00:02:28,670 --> 00:02:23,909 chemtrail conspiracy theory through 54 00:02:32,630 --> 00:02:28,680 coast-to-coast am with art bell and i 55 00:02:35,210 --> 00:02:32,640 think it was probably in the mid to late 56 00:02:39,589 --> 00:02:35,220 90s and i think it was probably Dane 57 00:02:43,099 --> 00:02:39,599 Wigington coming on the show or somebody 58 00:02:47,210 --> 00:02:43,109 else I remember back then it was more 59 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:47,220 talked about chemtrails are either for 60 00:02:51,259 --> 00:02:49,530 mind control or making people sick 61 00:02:53,780 --> 00:02:51,269 through Morgellons disease or something 62 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:53,790 like that it was kind of something that 63 00:02:59,780 --> 00:02:56,970 I used as entertainment I was living in 64 00:03:02,899 --> 00:02:59,790 a cabin in the woods and AM radio was 65 00:03:07,250 --> 00:03:02,909 like one kind of source of information 66 00:03:09,740 --> 00:03:07,260 that I could get there and um so and as 67 00:03:11,390 --> 00:03:09,750 I mentioned or in your book it says you 68 00:03:13,910 --> 00:03:11,400 know like at some point kind of got 69 00:03:17,599 --> 00:03:13,920 tired of waking up every morning scared 70 00:03:19,849 --> 00:03:17,609 to death of you know that the world's 71 00:03:23,689 --> 00:03:19,859 gonna end basically and you know now I 72 00:03:26,420 --> 00:03:23,699 see that stuff as you know a type of 73 00:03:28,849 --> 00:03:26,430 fear porn is what some people call that 74 00:03:31,250 --> 00:03:28,859 kind of thing yeah so that was in the 75 00:03:36,860 --> 00:03:31,260 early nineties then I kind of had more 76 00:03:40,550 --> 00:03:36,870 connections to what the conspiracy 77 00:03:45,439 --> 00:03:40,560 theory was doing at the time of like 99 78 00:03:47,030 --> 00:03:45,449 or 2000 through a website called what 79 00:03:48,500 --> 00:03:47,040 the heck was it called that hasn't 80 00:03:52,129 --> 00:03:48,510 really happened yeah what really 81 00:03:53,990 --> 00:03:52,139 happened right yeah and that guy he was 82 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:54,000 kind of an aggregator of other 83 00:04:01,479 --> 00:03:57,090 conspiracy theories like he linked to 84 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:01,489 rents and he linked to the early days of 85 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:05,970 of prison planet or that whole Alex 86 00:04:15,670 --> 00:04:12,930 Jones yeah and and it was for me 87 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:15,680 I hadn't had much experience with 88 00:04:23,690 --> 00:04:20,849 computers or the internet and I only had 89 00:04:25,459 --> 00:04:23,700 a few little places that I went to so it 90 00:04:27,499 --> 00:04:25,469 was like my local newspaper and I 91 00:04:32,070 --> 00:04:27,509 commented 92 00:04:34,070 --> 00:04:32,080 people there and then like maybe Yahoo 93 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:34,080 News or something is in this conspiracy 94 00:04:40,439 --> 00:04:36,849 site which seemed like to be giving me 95 00:04:42,869 --> 00:04:40,449 you know alternative information that I 96 00:04:45,959 --> 00:04:42,879 don't know it seemed kind of real at the 97 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:45,969 time and the the interesting thing about 98 00:04:51,540 --> 00:04:49,330 my story was the thing that led me 99 00:04:54,050 --> 00:04:51,550 furthest down the rabbit hole was the 100 00:05:00,390 --> 00:04:54,060 thing that also got me out and that was 101 00:05:03,300 --> 00:05:00,400 ballast tank pictures and and so and I 102 00:05:05,399 --> 00:05:03,310 was on the above top-secret forum I 103 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:05,409 don't think I was assigned in person I 104 00:05:11,820 --> 00:05:07,289 was just observing conversations there 105 00:05:14,010 --> 00:05:11,830 by this time I had seen one day on what 106 00:05:16,619 --> 00:05:14,020 really happened they said they presented 107 00:05:19,140 --> 00:05:16,629 the ballast tanks as smoking gun 108 00:05:21,959 --> 00:05:19,150 evidence so now I know that's called 109 00:05:23,610 --> 00:05:21,969 priming and like it you know like hey 110 00:05:25,499 --> 00:05:23,620 you're gonna get this information and 111 00:05:27,659 --> 00:05:25,509 it's gonna be smoking gun evidence and 112 00:05:30,059 --> 00:05:27,669 then he yeah and there you go that 113 00:05:33,269 --> 00:05:30,069 worked on me the headline so they they 114 00:05:36,570 --> 00:05:33,279 put it like exactly and so I believed it 115 00:05:38,550 --> 00:05:36,580 and I just swallowed the Hat and I was 116 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:38,560 like you know there was a moment I've 117 00:05:42,540 --> 00:05:40,210 heard other people in your podcast kind 118 00:05:44,610 --> 00:05:42,550 of described that like Paul's describes 119 00:05:46,559 --> 00:05:44,620 it as you know oh this is real and 120 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:46,569 that's what it seemed like to me too 121 00:05:50,129 --> 00:05:48,370 like oh this is really real there's the 122 00:05:51,959 --> 00:05:50,139 visual evidence I've been told it's 123 00:05:55,649 --> 00:05:51,969 smoking gun I'm looking at it it looks 124 00:05:57,959 --> 00:05:55,659 like smoke evidence to me and you know I 125 00:06:01,589 --> 00:05:57,969 didn't she didn't change my life in any 126 00:06:04,409 --> 00:06:01,599 great way I didn't go around telling 127 00:06:07,409 --> 00:06:04,419 everybody that the sky is falling but I 128 00:06:09,329 --> 00:06:07,419 would like mention that stuff like in 129 00:06:12,149 --> 00:06:09,339 comments like if I'd sign off on a 130 00:06:13,740 --> 00:06:12,159 comment I'd say stuff like in 9/11 it 131 00:06:16,589 --> 00:06:13,750 was the inside job which I believe that 132 00:06:20,010 --> 00:06:16,599 stuff too but one day on the above top 133 00:06:23,129 --> 00:06:20,020 secret somebody showed the sources of 134 00:06:26,070 --> 00:06:23,139 those the tank pictures you know they're 135 00:06:29,429 --> 00:06:26,080 from an aviation website and it's clear 136 00:06:31,649 --> 00:06:29,439 to me that someone had either didn't 137 00:06:33,510 --> 00:06:31,659 know the source of that information or 138 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:33,520 they had done the cropping themselves 139 00:06:37,980 --> 00:06:35,050 and cropped out the copyright don't 140 00:06:40,779 --> 00:06:37,990 share this type stuff and so all of a 141 00:06:43,469 --> 00:06:40,789 sudden I now had the thought that 142 00:06:49,239 --> 00:06:43,479 the conspiracy theorist people are lying 143 00:06:51,010 --> 00:06:49,249 or misrepresenting the facts and it and 144 00:06:52,959 --> 00:06:51,020 then the one other thing that kind of 145 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:52,969 was helpful with that was and I don't 146 00:06:59,790 --> 00:06:54,770 think I mentioned this in the book was I 147 00:07:05,049 --> 00:06:59,800 was doing some counseling with he was a 148 00:07:08,829 --> 00:07:05,059 union counselor here in town and I just 149 00:07:10,719 --> 00:07:08,839 gotten some money with my grandmother 150 00:07:13,929 --> 00:07:10,729 passed away and I thought it'd be a good 151 00:07:16,089 --> 00:07:13,939 idea just to get some counseling not 152 00:07:20,049 --> 00:07:16,099 because I was having any major problems 153 00:07:21,850 --> 00:07:20,059 in my life but I had read a lot of young 154 00:07:24,129 --> 00:07:21,860 and I thought that those were kind of 155 00:07:26,290 --> 00:07:24,139 cool ideas and I thought that maybe 156 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:26,300 since I had this little extra money I 157 00:07:34,510 --> 00:07:28,490 could spend some on making myself more 158 00:07:36,189 --> 00:07:34,520 individuated and so he actually we were 159 00:07:39,219 --> 00:07:36,199 talking one day and he mentioned 160 00:07:41,260 --> 00:07:39,229 something like how he said he 161 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:41,270 characterized the town of Olympia as 162 00:07:46,959 --> 00:07:45,770 full of whoo and I thought for a minute 163 00:07:48,879 --> 00:07:46,969 I hadn't really ever heard that 164 00:07:53,079 --> 00:07:48,889 description and this is the guy that I 165 00:07:57,489 --> 00:07:53,089 looked up to and seems like you know I 166 00:08:01,239 --> 00:07:57,499 enjoyed talking with him and so I kind 167 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:01,249 of gave him some credulity I guess or 168 00:08:06,429 --> 00:08:03,050 something and I thought to myself well 169 00:08:10,779 --> 00:08:06,439 yeah there is a lot of strange you know 170 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:10,789 belief in here it's like you know your 171 00:08:18,219 --> 00:08:15,610 wax candles yeah you set up in the book 172 00:08:20,949 --> 00:08:18,229 like any other Barry the second sentence 173 00:08:23,409 --> 00:08:20,959 was his home time was as he puts it a 174 00:08:26,529 --> 00:08:23,419 very liberal hippie dippie kind of 175 00:08:30,549 --> 00:08:26,539 community there's all kinds of 176 00:08:32,980 --> 00:08:30,559 alternative health things going on and 177 00:08:34,329 --> 00:08:32,990 you know that's great it creates a whole 178 00:08:36,459 --> 00:08:34,339 industry and people who wouldn't have 179 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:36,469 these pretty cool jobs now have jobs 180 00:08:44,230 --> 00:08:40,130 doing this stuff that they or may not 181 00:08:45,809 --> 00:08:44,240 have provable effects but it's you know 182 00:08:48,910 --> 00:08:45,819 and so there's stuff like that is 183 00:08:52,300 --> 00:08:48,920 acupuncture or cash I don't want to like 184 00:08:54,130 --> 00:08:52,310 offend people but yeah there's lots of 185 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:54,140 alternative type of stuff 186 00:09:00,730 --> 00:08:56,810 going on around here but um the effect 187 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:00,740 so just the cool thing about what it was 188 00:09:07,150 --> 00:09:04,970 for me was people say no one ever has 189 00:09:09,610 --> 00:09:07,160 ever changed anybody's mind online but 190 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:09,620 that's not true at least for my case and 191 00:09:14,139 --> 00:09:11,810 it wasn't from being involved in any 192 00:09:15,759 --> 00:09:14,149 kind of discussion I was not signed in 193 00:09:17,380 --> 00:09:15,769 and commenting I know we've both gone 194 00:09:19,269 --> 00:09:17,390 back and trying to find the thread and I 195 00:09:21,970 --> 00:09:19,279 can't find it but it doesn't matter 196 00:09:24,430 --> 00:09:21,980 because all that had to happen was I was 197 00:09:27,519 --> 00:09:24,440 an observer and I saw this happen and my 198 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:27,529 mind changed almost instantly and then 199 00:09:31,750 --> 00:09:30,410 with and then I found your website after 200 00:09:33,490 --> 00:09:31,760 that because someone in the thread was 201 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:33,500 either from Medibank or it was you I 202 00:09:39,130 --> 00:09:36,050 don't know and then I found Mehta bunk 203 00:09:42,250 --> 00:09:39,140 and after that I spent a couple years 204 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:42,260 going through all the forums looking at 205 00:09:46,990 --> 00:09:45,050 all the different threads I mean the 206 00:09:48,870 --> 00:09:47,000 passport thread is still I think one of 207 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:48,880 the clothes threads on that whole site 208 00:09:55,380 --> 00:09:52,370 and then so I kind of started with this 209 00:10:00,730 --> 00:09:55,390 new kind of skeptical attitude and 210 00:10:03,850 --> 00:10:00,740 probably dove right into that maybe 211 00:10:06,790 --> 00:10:03,860 foolishly thinking that this is some way 212 00:10:11,139 --> 00:10:06,800 that's going to I'm going to be able to 213 00:10:14,710 --> 00:10:11,149 debunk myself to the truth but things 214 00:10:17,110 --> 00:10:14,720 like the word truth or the word belief 215 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:17,120 now are really complicated for me to 216 00:10:22,420 --> 00:10:19,970 talk about and for example like I talked 217 00:10:25,750 --> 00:10:22,430 to people now about conspiracy theories 218 00:10:28,180 --> 00:10:25,760 and it's a takes a lot of them aback 219 00:10:31,090 --> 00:10:28,190 when I say I used to play for your team 220 00:10:33,579 --> 00:10:31,100 I understand that you pick up my cell 221 00:10:36,250 --> 00:10:33,589 and stuff like that and a lot of them 222 00:10:38,500 --> 00:10:36,260 are they can't even believe they say no 223 00:10:43,900 --> 00:10:38,510 it goes down the rabbit hole ever comes 224 00:10:45,910 --> 00:10:43,910 back out or they just find it to be kind 225 00:10:48,130 --> 00:10:45,920 of they just they can't believe it it's 226 00:10:50,050 --> 00:10:48,140 hard to be here a lot actually and when 227 00:10:52,630 --> 00:10:50,060 I was doing my original research for the 228 00:10:55,389 --> 00:10:52,640 book I went on with the 911 forums I 229 00:10:57,220 --> 00:10:55,399 asked you know are there any former 911 230 00:11:02,110 --> 00:10:57,230 truthers here who would like to talk to 231 00:11:04,590 --> 00:11:02,120 me for my book and people would say you 232 00:11:07,769 --> 00:11:04,600 will never find a former 9/11 truther 233 00:11:10,170 --> 00:11:07,779 because once your mind is open 234 00:11:12,809 --> 00:11:10,180 - this this reality then you can never 235 00:11:14,610 --> 00:11:12,819 go back and I think that's not true I 236 00:11:16,980 --> 00:11:14,620 know it's certainly not sure it goes I 237 00:11:19,619 --> 00:11:16,990 know lots of former 9/11 truthers yeah a 238 00:11:21,569 --> 00:11:19,629 lot of the people who are interviewed in 239 00:11:25,019 --> 00:11:21,579 the book oh you know former 9/11 240 00:11:27,629 --> 00:11:25,029 truthers and people do people do 241 00:11:29,670 --> 00:11:27,639 stop being 9/11 truthers my last 242 00:11:31,619 --> 00:11:29,680 interview was with a guy who didn't 243 00:11:36,059 --> 00:11:31,629 really stop believing he just stopped 244 00:11:37,379 --> 00:11:36,069 going to activism at I kind of feel like 245 00:11:41,239 --> 00:11:37,389 give him another ten years 246 00:11:43,949 --> 00:11:41,249 maybe he'll he'll stop believing - but 247 00:11:46,710 --> 00:11:43,959 it's interesting you can upset at one 248 00:11:48,420 --> 00:11:46,720 point it just earlier just now the you 249 00:11:50,970 --> 00:11:48,430 know you can work up and you you were 250 00:11:52,799 --> 00:11:50,980 tired of feeling scared about you know 251 00:11:53,489 --> 00:11:52,809 being being scared that the world is 252 00:12:00,119 --> 00:11:53,499 going to end 253 00:12:02,610 --> 00:12:00,129 yeah I still know yeah it's a you right 254 00:12:04,970 --> 00:12:02,620 you still recognize that it was you know 255 00:12:08,759 --> 00:12:04,980 a negative thing exist these apocalyptic 256 00:12:10,049 --> 00:12:08,769 idea yeah you know but you make you'd 257 00:12:11,850 --> 00:12:10,059 make trade-offs though it cuz you're 258 00:12:14,759 --> 00:12:11,860 like well yes I know this heavy 259 00:12:16,710 --> 00:12:14,769 knowledge but also I know this heavy 260 00:12:18,900 --> 00:12:16,720 knowledge and no one else does and like 261 00:12:20,850 --> 00:12:18,910 it kind of feels good you know Paul 262 00:12:23,549 --> 00:12:20,860 described it as it's like a drug I think 263 00:12:26,879 --> 00:12:23,559 I used some of the same languages yeah I 264 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:26,889 think that's common feeling yeah 265 00:12:31,980 --> 00:12:29,050 somebody contacted me recently like a 266 00:12:35,460 --> 00:12:31,990 young college kid like he was like 17 or 267 00:12:36,629 --> 00:12:35,470 18 and he was telling me like he keeps 268 00:12:38,579 --> 00:12:36,639 having all these thoughts about 269 00:12:41,220 --> 00:12:38,589 conspiracies and fears about the end of 270 00:12:42,329 --> 00:12:41,230 the world and he wanted me to try to 271 00:12:44,519 --> 00:12:42,339 stop it 272 00:12:46,829 --> 00:12:44,529 but the way he was talking is almost 273 00:12:49,530 --> 00:12:46,839 like he knew it was like a drug to him 274 00:12:51,509 --> 00:12:49,540 he couldn't stop it because he kept 275 00:12:54,540 --> 00:12:51,519 getting drawn back in his mind kept 276 00:12:56,939 --> 00:12:54,550 going to that place even though he 277 00:12:58,470 --> 00:12:56,949 didn't really want to he recognized it 278 00:13:00,419 --> 00:12:58,480 was a negative thing but he was like ah 279 00:13:02,009 --> 00:13:00,429 but what about this what about this it's 280 00:13:03,869 --> 00:13:02,019 kind of like hypochondriacs as well you 281 00:13:07,139 --> 00:13:03,879 know people who are always looking up 282 00:13:09,030 --> 00:13:07,149 their illnesses on the internet and then 283 00:13:10,860 --> 00:13:09,040 yeah yeah I've got you've got a bump on 284 00:13:13,439 --> 00:13:10,870 my arm what is it it's cancer you know I 285 00:13:15,449 --> 00:13:13,449 don't feel well I've got so you know 286 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:15,459 some disease like people and it's you 287 00:13:19,439 --> 00:13:17,050 know your mind kind of get sucked into 288 00:13:21,170 --> 00:13:19,449 those ways of thinking and it's very 289 00:13:23,330 --> 00:13:21,180 very difficult to get out 290 00:13:27,470 --> 00:13:23,340 yeah I just discovered I sent you a link 291 00:13:30,260 --> 00:13:27,480 on Facebook to a group called what's it 292 00:13:32,330 --> 00:13:30,270 called something debunked it's like the 293 00:13:34,550 --> 00:13:32,340 end of the world debunked doomsday 294 00:13:36,650 --> 00:13:34,560 doomsday to bump and it's a similar 295 00:13:40,100 --> 00:13:36,660 thing it's like people go there because 296 00:13:40,670 --> 00:13:40,110 they want to have their fears just taken 297 00:13:42,620 --> 00:13:40,680 away 298 00:13:45,470 --> 00:13:42,630 there's like this guy that responds to 299 00:13:47,150 --> 00:13:45,480 all of them with some great information 300 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:47,160 and he just explains you know this is 301 00:13:51,590 --> 00:13:49,410 how they get their reporting wrong and 302 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:51,600 it's usually like just too much 303 00:13:57,500 --> 00:13:54,930 fear-mongering about global about ice 304 00:14:01,550 --> 00:13:57,510 melting on the polar caps and stuff like 305 00:14:07,790 --> 00:14:01,560 that and so yeah I think it does do harm 306 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:07,800 i I am i off tonneau what does it matter 307 00:14:12,770 --> 00:14:09,450 what I believe how it's not hurting 308 00:14:15,230 --> 00:14:12,780 anybody but there's a whole scale of how 309 00:14:19,070 --> 00:14:15,240 it does hurt people from all the way up 310 00:14:20,620 --> 00:14:19,080 to the pizza gate shooter guy down to 311 00:14:22,850 --> 00:14:20,630 simple things with you know 312 00:14:26,570 --> 00:14:22,860 relationships with friends and family 313 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:26,580 getting worse off oh yeah yeah yeah 314 00:14:30,410 --> 00:14:28,530 definitely and the interest on for the 315 00:14:32,930 --> 00:14:30,420 individual like the people who are just 316 00:14:35,330 --> 00:14:32,940 afraid of things exactly it's kind of 317 00:14:36,860 --> 00:14:35,340 crippling fear this this kid I was 318 00:14:38,390 --> 00:14:36,870 talking to he was he was actually think 319 00:14:40,670 --> 00:14:38,400 he was going to college like yes 320 00:14:43,190 --> 00:14:40,680 starting at college and yeah this is 321 00:14:45,950 --> 00:14:43,200 something that when you're a 17 18 year 322 00:14:49,370 --> 00:14:45,960 old kid if you're spending all your time 323 00:14:50,450 --> 00:14:49,380 worrying about the coming apocalypse in 324 00:14:53,300 --> 00:14:50,460 the next year or two 325 00:14:55,550 --> 00:14:53,310 your college is going to suffer you know 326 00:14:57,020 --> 00:14:55,560 yell to get on with life so it's going 327 00:14:59,600 --> 00:14:57,030 to be very very damaging to the 328 00:15:02,510 --> 00:14:59,610 individual you know sure like if you 329 00:15:04,670 --> 00:15:02,520 just some retired person sat at home 330 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:04,680 occasionally reading about 9/11 theories 331 00:15:09,020 --> 00:15:06,810 just for entertainment yeah that may be 332 00:15:11,630 --> 00:15:09,030 fine but for a lot of people it's very 333 00:15:14,990 --> 00:15:11,640 very real and it's very very impactful 334 00:15:17,210 --> 00:15:15,000 on their lives and it's also wasteful I 335 00:15:18,740 --> 00:15:17,220 mean it's just it's really wasteful like 336 00:15:24,860 --> 00:15:18,750 there's all these people very concerned 337 00:15:27,350 --> 00:15:24,870 about 9/11 still and they could be you 338 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:27,360 know channeling that or chemtrails could 339 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:30,930 be channeling that into you know climate 340 00:15:34,940 --> 00:15:34,170 climate change activism instead of you 341 00:15:36,350 --> 00:15:34,950 know 342 00:15:38,990 --> 00:15:36,360 yeah there's all these real problems 343 00:15:40,790 --> 00:15:39,000 yeah I mean even if you some people like 344 00:15:43,070 --> 00:15:40,800 the if they're very suspicious 345 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:43,080 conspiratorial people a lot of the times 346 00:15:46,310 --> 00:15:44,370 they don't believe climate change is 347 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:46,320 real but there's lots of you know even 348 00:15:49,580 --> 00:15:47,250 if they're not going to get straight 349 00:15:52,310 --> 00:15:49,590 into that there's lots of very real 350 00:15:54,110 --> 00:15:52,320 issues in you know whatever country 351 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:54,120 you're in Mike in America there's 352 00:15:59,360 --> 00:15:57,170 there's problems with with corruption 353 00:16:03,410 --> 00:15:59,370 yams with you know the way elections 354 00:16:05,750 --> 00:16:03,420 work there's problems with you know 355 00:16:07,610 --> 00:16:05,760 corporations life starting to have an 356 00:16:10,210 --> 00:16:07,620 undue influence like and if people can 357 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:10,220 focus more on real issues like that 358 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:12,570 you know it's whatever reason I do it I 359 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:14,370 see all these people getting distracted 360 00:16:20,090 --> 00:16:16,130 and there are some people who are very 361 00:16:23,900 --> 00:16:20,100 eloquent people yeah it literally Dane 362 00:16:26,330 --> 00:16:23,910 Wigington he black he's he speaks very 363 00:16:27,890 --> 00:16:26,340 persuasively yeah especially if you 364 00:16:29,540 --> 00:16:27,900 believe the subject matter that he's 365 00:16:31,490 --> 00:16:29,550 talking about and he speaks very 366 00:16:33,470 --> 00:16:31,500 persuasively and he gets people riled up 367 00:16:35,570 --> 00:16:33,480 and you know he gets people organized 368 00:16:38,210 --> 00:16:35,580 and he does things but he's kind of 369 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:38,220 wasting his life by going down this 370 00:16:43,220 --> 00:16:41,250 rabbit hole of covert geo engineering 371 00:16:46,490 --> 00:16:43,230 where he thinks that these planes are 372 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:46,500 spraying things in the sky and if he 373 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:49,050 could he could really contribute to the 374 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:50,850 world in a much much more positive way 375 00:16:54,830 --> 00:16:53,130 if he actually was focusing on something 376 00:17:00,890 --> 00:16:54,840 that was real other than something that 377 00:17:03,770 --> 00:17:00,900 wasn't yeah he I think you know way more 378 00:17:07,189 --> 00:17:03,780 about him but I think I've read that he 379 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:07,199 kind of doesn't really believe in what 380 00:17:12,319 --> 00:17:09,810 he's selling he's selling stuff kind of 381 00:17:13,790 --> 00:17:12,329 from his website right no I don't think 382 00:17:16,069 --> 00:17:13,800 he actually makes money from what he 383 00:17:20,420 --> 00:17:16,079 says I think he actually is a genuine 384 00:17:21,140 --> 00:17:20,430 true believer I think perhaps the hue 385 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:21,150 mites 386 00:17:29,780 --> 00:17:26,610 I wouldn't say lie exactly but he he 387 00:17:31,510 --> 00:17:29,790 really does avoid debunking --zz like if 388 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:31,520 you explain something to him he won't 389 00:17:39,290 --> 00:17:34,050 even give it the time of day like he 390 00:17:41,710 --> 00:17:39,300 claims yeah punking on his Facebook page 391 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:41,720 he black me without even saying anything 392 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:44,010 those like things like you know there's 393 00:17:46,670 --> 00:17:45,570 about the balance barrels that we were 394 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:46,680 talking about earlier this is this 395 00:17:50,690 --> 00:17:48,330 famous photograph or 396 00:17:52,130 --> 00:17:50,700 some barrels in a plane everyone says 397 00:17:53,659 --> 00:17:52,140 they're full of chemicals this is what 398 00:17:55,250 --> 00:17:53,669 the Carol's a spray from there's all 399 00:17:57,529 --> 00:17:55,260 these different ones and actually I just 400 00:17:59,750 --> 00:17:57,539 saw that come up today somebody on 401 00:18:02,720 --> 00:17:59,760 Twitter mentioned that she'd seen a 402 00:18:04,909 --> 00:18:02,730 photograph of Donald Trump on a chem 403 00:18:07,279 --> 00:18:04,919 plane with barrels yeah I think I've 404 00:18:09,649 --> 00:18:07,289 seen that yeah so it's just him he's 405 00:18:14,029 --> 00:18:09,659 examining the latest I don't know where 406 00:18:16,430 --> 00:18:14,039 it's like 787 or something like that and 407 00:18:18,500 --> 00:18:16,440 yeah it's because it's a prototype plane 408 00:18:20,299 --> 00:18:18,510 it has these Barris ballast barrels on 409 00:18:22,070 --> 00:18:20,309 it which just full of water that they 410 00:18:25,909 --> 00:18:22,080 use for the weight and mass but he's 411 00:18:28,820 --> 00:18:25,919 still going yeah you you saw this this 412 00:18:32,350 --> 00:18:28,830 thing back like in the early 2000s or 413 00:18:37,580 --> 00:18:32,360 something like that it was in 2013 okay 414 00:18:40,039 --> 00:18:37,590 okay yeah 2012 2013 I think and um yeah 415 00:18:42,070 --> 00:18:40,049 I can't find it again but you know I 416 00:18:44,539 --> 00:18:42,080 think you've mentioned elsewhere that 417 00:18:47,419 --> 00:18:44,549 this stuff will always just keep coming 418 00:18:50,870 --> 00:18:47,429 back up and he just gotta be basic just 419 00:18:54,620 --> 00:18:50,880 show people the other information and 420 00:18:58,279 --> 00:18:54,630 you know a lot of what this is really 421 00:19:00,560 --> 00:18:58,289 resonated to me about your book is well 422 00:19:03,950 --> 00:19:00,570 and your website first is the politeness 423 00:19:05,539 --> 00:19:03,960 factor that is a huge thing that you 424 00:19:07,539 --> 00:19:05,549 know that surprises people because 425 00:19:10,730 --> 00:19:07,549 everybody's used to getting flamed 426 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:10,740 online and be called names and so number 427 00:19:13,940 --> 00:19:12,210 one I think that's super effective and 428 00:19:17,539 --> 00:19:13,950 the other thing that's super effective 429 00:19:23,659 --> 00:19:17,549 is how you kind of say that it's not 430 00:19:26,799 --> 00:19:23,669 useful to even like think of people who 431 00:19:30,980 --> 00:19:26,809 believe in conspiracy theorists as 432 00:19:34,850 --> 00:19:30,990 having a mental problem or or not being 433 00:19:37,820 --> 00:19:34,860 smart or anything like that that it's 434 00:19:40,100 --> 00:19:37,830 just a situation where they just don't 435 00:19:44,289 --> 00:19:40,110 have all the information that they might 436 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:44,299 find useful and the the way you describe 437 00:19:52,879 --> 00:19:47,970 staying in contact with someone over a 438 00:19:56,710 --> 00:19:52,889 long time and just being there to you 439 00:20:00,289 --> 00:19:56,720 know have a continuing conversation oh 440 00:20:02,269 --> 00:20:00,299 I've kind of tried to adopt that with 441 00:20:04,399 --> 00:20:02,279 the conversations that I have to 442 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:04,409 various friends who are down the rabbit 443 00:20:11,629 --> 00:20:10,129 hole and I also liken it to the guy who 444 00:20:13,759 --> 00:20:11,639 invented 445 00:20:17,269 --> 00:20:13,769 I think it's tight she and I think his 446 00:20:20,479 --> 00:20:17,279 name is um eat man he has this little 447 00:20:22,969 --> 00:20:20,489 say that kind of outlines the philosophy 448 00:20:25,729 --> 00:20:22,979 behind Tai Chi which is like a sticky 449 00:20:27,709 --> 00:20:25,739 hand type of martial arts where you 450 00:20:33,289 --> 00:20:27,719 stick your hands right out and get the 451 00:20:35,839 --> 00:20:33,299 guy and it's greet what arrives escort 452 00:20:40,009 --> 00:20:35,849 what leaves and rush upon loss of 453 00:20:42,799 --> 00:20:40,019 contact and I just I use that as a way 454 00:20:45,589 --> 00:20:42,809 to kind of maintain the conversations 455 00:20:47,659 --> 00:20:45,599 like someone will send me a conspiracy 456 00:20:50,269 --> 00:20:47,669 theory you know and want me to comment 457 00:20:52,159 --> 00:20:50,279 on it usually because I have kind of 458 00:20:55,940 --> 00:20:52,169 this ongoing challenge with some of my 459 00:20:58,339 --> 00:20:55,950 friends like I am not aware of a 460 00:21:00,729 --> 00:20:58,349 conspiracy theory which turned out to be 461 00:21:03,229 --> 00:21:00,739 true is basically what I'm saying 462 00:21:04,729 --> 00:21:03,239 because I want to be proven wrong number 463 00:21:06,589 --> 00:21:04,739 one because there's got to be you know 464 00:21:08,509 --> 00:21:06,599 one out there the closest that I can 465 00:21:13,249 --> 00:21:08,519 come up with is maybe the case of Gary 466 00:21:16,459 --> 00:21:13,259 Webb the guy who is reporting on the CIA 467 00:21:20,089 --> 00:21:16,469 drug running and he was writing for a 468 00:21:23,539 --> 00:21:20,099 small newspaper and are you familiar 469 00:21:28,039 --> 00:21:23,549 with that guy I I think I've heard it 470 00:21:29,539 --> 00:21:28,049 because there was a film 8 yeah and I I 471 00:21:31,579 --> 00:21:29,549 think well I think he ended up 472 00:21:33,979 --> 00:21:31,589 committing suicide and that's like the 473 00:21:35,810 --> 00:21:33,989 closest I could find to like yeah 474 00:21:37,789 --> 00:21:35,820 something without it was a conspiracy 475 00:21:40,430 --> 00:21:37,799 theory then later I found it it was true 476 00:21:42,979 --> 00:21:40,440 and I don't even know a lot of people 477 00:21:46,070 --> 00:21:42,989 bring up conspiracies that were 478 00:21:47,719 --> 00:21:46,080 discovered later that's not the same 479 00:21:49,669 --> 00:21:47,729 thing that's not the same thing no 480 00:21:51,589 --> 00:21:49,679 that's what people don't understand a 481 00:21:53,989 --> 00:21:51,599 conspiracy theory has to have been 482 00:21:56,539 --> 00:21:53,999 theorized about at some point for it to 483 00:21:57,919 --> 00:21:56,549 be a conspiracy theory if it's just 484 00:21:59,450 --> 00:21:57,929 something you discover later that's just 485 00:22:01,399 --> 00:21:59,460 a conspiracy that you discover later 486 00:22:04,009 --> 00:22:01,409 right especially theories wherever is 487 00:22:06,139 --> 00:22:04,019 going oh well you know the you know 488 00:22:08,659 --> 00:22:06,149 whatever Nixon is is taking people in 489 00:22:11,389 --> 00:22:08,669 the in the hotel no one was making 490 00:22:12,799 --> 00:22:11,399 theories about that no one was was doing 491 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:12,809 theories about you know what was going 492 00:22:16,029 --> 00:22:15,210 on there until some evidence might crop 493 00:22:17,499 --> 00:22:16,039 up 494 00:22:19,060 --> 00:22:17,509 especially it kind of say that Watergate 495 00:22:21,969 --> 00:22:19,070 for a while might have been considered a 496 00:22:23,469 --> 00:22:21,979 conspiracy theory yeah there was some 497 00:22:27,190 --> 00:22:23,479 evidence that something was going on and 498 00:22:28,389 --> 00:22:27,200 Nixon was denying wrongdoing sir but 499 00:22:32,789 --> 00:22:28,399 it's not really a conspiracy theory that 500 00:22:35,169 --> 00:22:32,799 that's just more like you're kind of 501 00:22:37,060 --> 00:22:35,179 about to be indicted are you going to 502 00:22:39,159 --> 00:22:37,070 trial it's not like every single trial 503 00:22:41,979 --> 00:22:39,169 doesn't involve a conspiracy theory it's 504 00:22:45,009 --> 00:22:41,989 it's a different type of thing so yeah 505 00:22:47,049 --> 00:22:45,019 Brian Dunning has like a get you know 506 00:22:49,180 --> 00:22:47,059 his thing is the skeptoid meet and he's 507 00:22:52,180 --> 00:22:49,190 got a page that are like eight 508 00:22:54,820 --> 00:22:52,190 conspiracy theories that turned out to 509 00:22:58,330 --> 00:22:54,830 be true question mark and then goes 510 00:23:00,489 --> 00:22:58,340 through and kind of tells the story 511 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:00,499 basically you know like the Tuskegee 512 00:23:04,060 --> 00:23:02,210 Airmen well that's like you were saying 513 00:23:06,489 --> 00:23:04,070 that's not a conspiracy theory that 514 00:23:08,919 --> 00:23:06,499 turned out to be a conspiracy it's just 515 00:23:12,639 --> 00:23:08,929 a conspiracy that was real Phyllis 516 00:23:16,029 --> 00:23:12,649 saying nothing oh okay yeah the syphilis 517 00:23:18,219 --> 00:23:16,039 thing and then oh he talks about Martin 518 00:23:19,930 --> 00:23:18,229 Luther King you know the guy basically 519 00:23:21,729 --> 00:23:19,940 it was a racist with the gun that shot 520 00:23:23,830 --> 00:23:21,739 him there's no conspiracy yes the 521 00:23:26,889 --> 00:23:23,840 government was spying on him what that 522 00:23:29,889 --> 00:23:26,899 wasn't this the conspiracy theory you 523 00:23:33,389 --> 00:23:29,899 know and um I guess the guy I wrote a 524 00:23:36,039 --> 00:23:33,399 book about it which somebody's told me 525 00:23:37,989 --> 00:23:36,049 explains this conspiracy theory but the 526 00:23:39,489 --> 00:23:37,999 guy was trying to make money off of it 527 00:23:42,129 --> 00:23:39,499 and so I'm pretty skeptical of that I'm 528 00:23:45,190 --> 00:23:42,139 skeptical of everything nowadays well I 529 00:23:46,239 --> 00:23:45,200 guess a book so this could feel right 530 00:23:49,919 --> 00:23:46,249 books I didn't think she don't 531 00:23:53,979 --> 00:23:49,929 automatically be skeptical of them it's 532 00:23:57,369 --> 00:23:53,989 but I think like one day I got to 533 00:23:58,930 --> 00:23:57,379 thinking about evil and so I just typed 534 00:24:01,149 --> 00:23:58,940 into Google because you know somebody 535 00:24:03,669 --> 00:24:01,159 used the word evil and I thought well 536 00:24:06,489 --> 00:24:03,679 I'm not sure if I believe in evil and so 537 00:24:09,089 --> 00:24:06,499 I just typed into Google evil skepticism 538 00:24:12,430 --> 00:24:09,099 and I found a page on Stanford 539 00:24:14,649 --> 00:24:12,440 University website talking about all 540 00:24:17,379 --> 00:24:14,659 these philosophers that don't believe 541 00:24:21,930 --> 00:24:17,389 that we should talk about things in 542 00:24:24,639 --> 00:24:21,940 terms of evil because things like it is 543 00:24:27,070 --> 00:24:24,649 more explanatory to just say what 544 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:27,080 someone did then to say that they're 545 00:24:33,340 --> 00:24:29,210 evil like they're a murderer you know 546 00:24:36,370 --> 00:24:33,350 I need to save her evil or the whole 547 00:24:39,220 --> 00:24:36,380 problem of using evil kind of invokes a 548 00:24:42,070 --> 00:24:39,230 system of belief that you may or may not 549 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:42,080 believe in or something so I can find 550 00:24:46,289 --> 00:24:44,570 uses for skepticism everywhere yeah 551 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:46,299 that's the interesting thing because 552 00:24:51,340 --> 00:24:49,490 evil people think of evil or some people 553 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:51,350 like religious people especially will 554 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:52,850 think of evil as being kind of like a 555 00:24:57,850 --> 00:24:54,770 fundamental force and it says this 556 00:24:59,340 --> 00:24:57,860 that's good and there's evil but yeah 557 00:25:02,049 --> 00:24:59,350 for other people it's a bit more 558 00:25:04,510 --> 00:25:02,059 relative and it's a bit of an abstract 559 00:25:07,090 --> 00:25:04,520 concept in a way it is evil has some 560 00:25:08,799 --> 00:25:07,100 kind of intent and there's things that 561 00:25:10,750 --> 00:25:08,809 happen which don't have intent behind 562 00:25:12,669 --> 00:25:10,760 them that people might say Oh Eve also 563 00:25:15,310 --> 00:25:12,679 you know which I think whenever you get 564 00:25:17,980 --> 00:25:15,320 a word weather usage is confusing it is 565 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:17,990 like you just said you just say what's 566 00:25:22,149 --> 00:25:19,730 happening is describe what's actually 567 00:25:24,010 --> 00:25:22,159 going on rather than trying to put a 568 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:24,020 label on let's say this is evil you know 569 00:25:30,190 --> 00:25:25,610 say these children are being tortured 570 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:30,200 yeah it's just a way to be more accurate 571 00:25:36,970 --> 00:25:33,770 and get rid of the stuff that doesn't do 572 00:25:39,820 --> 00:25:36,980 the good work you know one thing that 573 00:25:42,820 --> 00:25:39,830 actually really resonated with a lot of 574 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:42,830 people from your your thing in the book 575 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:45,890 was when you said that you went to your 576 00:25:51,669 --> 00:25:49,250 friends and you told them you didn't 577 00:25:56,590 --> 00:25:51,679 believe 9/11 was an inside job anymore 578 00:26:02,019 --> 00:25:56,600 and this was she wasn't it said like are 579 00:26:06,279 --> 00:26:02,029 you okay now yes yeah yeah yeah that was 580 00:26:09,039 --> 00:26:06,289 that was the guy used to get some that's 581 00:26:11,019 --> 00:26:09,049 right yeah so he was it's pretty 582 00:26:14,710 --> 00:26:11,029 incredible and he couldn't believe that 583 00:26:16,180 --> 00:26:14,720 I didn't believe that stuff and he he 584 00:26:18,310 --> 00:26:16,190 hasn't been able to really talk to me 585 00:26:20,740 --> 00:26:18,320 since this is another thing that happens 586 00:26:24,070 --> 00:26:20,750 yes people kind of just break off 587 00:26:25,630 --> 00:26:24,080 communication with me because I think 588 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:25,640 they don't think I'm part of their tribe 589 00:26:30,039 --> 00:26:27,770 or something anymore you know there is a 590 00:26:33,340 --> 00:26:30,049 whole lot of camaraderie that's in 591 00:26:35,830 --> 00:26:33,350 conspiracy theory circles almost a 592 00:26:37,899 --> 00:26:35,840 spiritual camaraderie I would call it 593 00:26:41,110 --> 00:26:37,909 Rory kind of connected with that a 594 00:26:42,940 --> 00:26:41,120 little bit and so yeah some people just 595 00:26:47,889 --> 00:26:42,950 kind of shut me out 596 00:26:51,180 --> 00:26:47,899 and I it's sad to be but also you know 597 00:26:54,909 --> 00:26:51,190 there's that the permit the frog meme 598 00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:54,919 about should i do bunk this and yeah i 599 00:27:00,359 --> 00:26:57,369 should just do it oh yes 600 00:27:03,580 --> 00:27:00,369 that's kind of what i think i go if it's 601 00:27:05,289 --> 00:27:03,590 if i can just offer the truth you know 602 00:27:07,299 --> 00:27:05,299 or not the truth but just some 603 00:27:09,779 --> 00:27:07,309 information that the other person might 604 00:27:13,299 --> 00:27:09,789 not have I should offer that information 605 00:27:15,729 --> 00:27:13,309 whether or not the person's ready and 606 00:27:19,799 --> 00:27:15,739 this is where I'm at actually I think I 607 00:27:24,999 --> 00:27:23,259 supporting people on an emotional level 608 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:25,009 which I'm not doing a very good job of 609 00:27:31,330 --> 00:27:29,210 that like I'm kind of engaging with 610 00:27:34,330 --> 00:27:31,340 their intellect but I'm forgetting to 611 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:34,340 talk to him as a person I guess or you 612 00:27:40,539 --> 00:27:38,330 know this guy that you talk to and you 613 00:27:44,830 --> 00:27:40,549 told him about 9/11 and then he kind of 614 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:44,840 cut you off would you go back and do it 615 00:27:57,310 --> 00:27:49,730 differently now well yeah I would 616 00:27:59,229 --> 00:27:57,320 because it didn't work what do you think 617 00:28:01,359 --> 00:27:59,239 went wrong though were you just too 618 00:28:04,509 --> 00:28:01,369 abrupt were you kind of mocking it so 619 00:28:09,299 --> 00:28:04,519 did he just come across wrong I didn't 620 00:28:11,710 --> 00:28:09,309 spend enough time caring for him like I 621 00:28:14,769 --> 00:28:11,720 should have probably done a better job 622 00:28:19,180 --> 00:28:14,779 at like you know telling him stuff like 623 00:28:21,249 --> 00:28:19,190 hey I love you and I know the 624 00:28:23,019 --> 00:28:21,259 information that you know but I've 625 00:28:26,229 --> 00:28:23,029 discovered some new information and 626 00:28:27,849 --> 00:28:26,239 maybe you got to sit with me and let's 627 00:28:30,190 --> 00:28:27,859 take a look together like that seems 628 00:28:31,539 --> 00:28:30,200 like a really I haven't been able to do 629 00:28:35,109 --> 00:28:31,549 that with a whole lot of people I've 630 00:28:38,830 --> 00:28:35,119 tried and you know a lot of times when 631 00:28:40,629 --> 00:28:38,840 you're conspiracy theorists you have a 632 00:28:42,549 --> 00:28:40,639 lot of it's pretty easy to not get 633 00:28:46,060 --> 00:28:42,559 nailed down on something you can switch 634 00:28:47,950 --> 00:28:46,070 to like the next top really quick so 635 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:47,960 you're on 9/11 one moment and then all 636 00:28:51,310 --> 00:28:49,730 of a sudden someone wants to talk to you 637 00:28:54,129 --> 00:28:51,320 about hey well here's a story of how 638 00:28:55,359 --> 00:28:54,139 this passport could have gotten shot out 639 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:55,369 of the other side of the building and 640 00:28:59,680 --> 00:28:56,690 you're like well never 641 00:29:01,720 --> 00:28:59,690 I want to talk about chemtrails now yeah 642 00:29:05,350 --> 00:29:01,730 or even just something else in the 911s 643 00:29:07,500 --> 00:29:05,360 because people have an endless list yeah 644 00:29:11,530 --> 00:29:07,510 and then also the difference between 645 00:29:15,580 --> 00:29:11,540 cynicism and skepticism has also become 646 00:29:23,460 --> 00:29:15,590 really seemingly important to me and the 647 00:29:29,140 --> 00:29:23,470 ants so there's this great Jillette Pen 648 00:29:31,510 --> 00:29:29,150 video on YouTube where he talks about 649 00:29:36,850 --> 00:29:31,520 the difference between set skepticism 650 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:36,860 and cynicism and he says that skit 651 00:29:41,530 --> 00:29:39,050 cynicism is questioning people's 652 00:29:44,830 --> 00:29:41,540 motivations and skepticism is 653 00:29:46,780 --> 00:29:44,840 questioning evidence and also that's a 654 00:29:49,180 --> 00:29:46,790 really good thing about your site is 655 00:29:50,740 --> 00:29:49,190 basically you're not talking about you 656 00:29:53,470 --> 00:29:50,750 can just forget about the question of 657 00:29:55,390 --> 00:29:53,480 what people's motivations are generally 658 00:29:58,270 --> 00:29:55,400 I believe most people are good people 659 00:30:01,120 --> 00:29:58,280 just you know like keith was saying in 660 00:30:03,670 --> 00:30:01,130 your interview with him you're trusting 661 00:30:08,110 --> 00:30:03,680 that thousands and thousands of people 662 00:30:11,980 --> 00:30:08,120 are not going to with blow blow the 663 00:30:16,870 --> 00:30:11,990 whistle right and I do I've relied on 664 00:30:20,020 --> 00:30:16,880 the kindness of strangers to get around 665 00:30:21,670 --> 00:30:20,030 this world and I generally think most 666 00:30:23,500 --> 00:30:21,680 people are good I can just get rid of 667 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:23,510 the question of what are people's evil 668 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:25,730 intentions and just look at what is the 669 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:30,290 evidence presented and and I know a 670 00:30:34,150 --> 00:30:32,690 little bit better now than I used to I 671 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:34,160 know there's tons of room for 672 00:30:38,410 --> 00:30:35,930 improvement but I know a little bit 673 00:30:40,750 --> 00:30:38,420 better about how to look something up 674 00:30:43,420 --> 00:30:40,760 like I didn't used to know what 675 00:30:46,810 --> 00:30:43,430 confirmation bias was it's a like I 676 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:46,820 would just go hmm I have a doubt in my 677 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:49,730 mind that controlled demolition was 678 00:30:54,700 --> 00:30:51,770 involved with building seven so I just 679 00:30:57,490 --> 00:30:54,710 Google controlled demolition 257 and 680 00:31:00,580 --> 00:30:57,500 what I found all kinds of evidence for 681 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:00,590 it but you know then that's something 682 00:31:06,130 --> 00:31:03,730 I've heard like people told me that they 683 00:31:08,190 --> 00:31:06,140 they start to have doubts and so they'll 684 00:31:10,060 --> 00:31:08,200 kind of run off and watch lots of videos 685 00:31:12,340 --> 00:31:10,070 yeah that support 686 00:31:15,340 --> 00:31:12,350 believe because the feeling uncertain 687 00:31:18,570 --> 00:31:15,350 right and I never got into the video 688 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:18,580 thing that wasn't that much I'm 689 00:31:27,070 --> 00:31:22,730 skeptical of videos because uh they I 690 00:31:30,190 --> 00:31:27,080 think video does a real good job at 691 00:31:32,650 --> 00:31:30,200 bypassing our intellect and working on 692 00:31:37,870 --> 00:31:32,660 us on an emotional level and I don't 693 00:31:40,690 --> 00:31:37,880 trust that so much mm-hmm and so I don't 694 00:31:43,390 --> 00:31:40,700 watch any video news I don't watch 695 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:43,400 television I work with video screens all 696 00:31:49,750 --> 00:31:46,850 day long so I don't really care to watch 697 00:31:51,490 --> 00:31:49,760 screen so when I get home but I do play 698 00:31:52,780 --> 00:31:51,500 video games and that reminds me of a 699 00:31:55,060 --> 00:31:52,790 question that I wanted to ask you 700 00:31:58,210 --> 00:31:55,070 because your former video game 701 00:32:02,590 --> 00:31:58,220 programmer and what it is is that I am I 702 00:32:04,930 --> 00:32:02,600 recently started to notice my behavior 703 00:32:06,790 --> 00:32:04,940 in a video game I'm playing Red Dead 704 00:32:12,030 --> 00:32:06,800 Redemption which is like a cowboy well 705 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:12,040 yeah and I started to notice myself 706 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:16,090 looking at my character and kind of 707 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:19,010 comparing my look of my character to the 708 00:32:23,230 --> 00:32:20,330 other characters in the game and then I 709 00:32:27,210 --> 00:32:23,240 got to thinking like is there that I 710 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:27,220 think that's probably some kind of like 711 00:32:34,750 --> 00:32:32,570 evolutionary psychology like thing that 712 00:32:36,460 --> 00:32:34,760 works in our brains you know where 713 00:32:38,860 --> 00:32:36,470 you're constantly comparing yourself to 714 00:32:41,170 --> 00:32:38,870 members of your tribe maybe and looking 715 00:32:43,540 --> 00:32:41,180 and seeing well how you compare and 716 00:32:46,510 --> 00:32:43,550 that's it I think so I think friends do 717 00:32:48,850 --> 00:32:46,520 and and so what then was a question I 718 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:48,860 had for you I'm so glad we got to talk 719 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:52,250 today is do you think that there is an 720 00:32:59,230 --> 00:32:56,090 understanding of how video games might 721 00:33:01,960 --> 00:32:59,240 talk to that part of our brain is from 722 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:01,970 an evolutionary psychology point of view 723 00:33:06,370 --> 00:33:03,410 because you got these games like 724 00:33:08,260 --> 00:33:06,380 Minecraft which are basically like how 725 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:08,270 to survive in your environment and they 726 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:11,810 would appeal to that type of that part 727 00:33:17,140 --> 00:33:14,090 of our brain that we evolved in order to 728 00:33:18,820 --> 00:33:17,150 survive in that environment yeah I just 729 00:33:20,830 --> 00:33:18,830 wonder if that's something that is known 730 00:33:23,430 --> 00:33:20,840 or maybe there's too far away from it 731 00:33:25,860 --> 00:33:23,440 now and there people definitely do think 732 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:25,870 about psychology when the designing 733 00:33:29,639 --> 00:33:27,730 video games it was you know kind of less 734 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:29,649 so back in the early days because they 735 00:33:33,210 --> 00:33:31,690 were so simple but as they got bigger 736 00:33:35,249 --> 00:33:33,220 and bigger and they get here more and 737 00:33:37,860 --> 00:33:35,259 more money involved in it people 738 00:33:40,769 --> 00:33:37,870 definitely do think about the psychology 739 00:33:42,779 --> 00:33:40,779 and I would I would think about you know 740 00:33:45,869 --> 00:33:42,789 the what's going through the mind of the 741 00:33:47,909 --> 00:33:45,879 person when they you know they encounter 742 00:33:50,159 --> 00:33:47,919 a certain thing when I was designing 743 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:50,169 video games and I'm sure now there's 744 00:33:56,700 --> 00:33:51,490 probably people who consult with 745 00:34:00,210 --> 00:33:56,710 psychologists and things like that yeah 746 00:34:03,330 --> 00:34:00,220 and I think a lot of the things that are 747 00:34:05,639 --> 00:34:03,340 you seeing games have kind of not not 748 00:34:08,700 --> 00:34:05,649 evolved exactly but they've kind of been 749 00:34:10,919 --> 00:34:08,710 filtered out by natural selection into 750 00:34:15,750 --> 00:34:10,929 the types of things that appeal to 751 00:34:19,290 --> 00:34:15,760 people on a primal level yeah you enjoy 752 00:34:21,750 --> 00:34:19,300 a certain exploration or you you enjoy 753 00:34:23,819 --> 00:34:21,760 getting rewards you enjoy discovering a 754 00:34:29,690 --> 00:34:23,829 cache of weapons which is or a cache of 755 00:34:34,379 --> 00:34:29,700 a food you know the latest Zelda game 756 00:34:37,559 --> 00:34:34,389 Nintendo switch is going in it yes yeah 757 00:34:39,329 --> 00:34:37,569 collecting food and cooking that is the 758 00:34:42,270 --> 00:34:39,339 best game I think I've seen so far that 759 00:34:43,770 --> 00:34:42,280 is an amazing game yeah and that's it's 760 00:34:45,750 --> 00:34:43,780 almost like going back to your the 761 00:34:49,169 --> 00:34:45,760 primitive roots of humankind and that 762 00:34:53,099 --> 00:34:49,179 it's appealing directly to the you know 763 00:34:55,710 --> 00:34:53,109 the the the the evolved brain which is 764 00:34:58,230 --> 00:34:55,720 all about surviving yeah propagating 765 00:35:00,750 --> 00:34:58,240 your genes I guess and I guess yeah 766 00:35:02,460 --> 00:35:00,760 looking at other people thing is 767 00:35:04,950 --> 00:35:02,470 probably something to do with genetic 768 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:04,960 diversity and and seeing like you know 769 00:35:09,780 --> 00:35:07,450 my genes better than his genes do I have 770 00:35:11,730 --> 00:35:09,790 a chance like which female should I try 771 00:35:13,260 --> 00:35:11,740 to mate with which one is that guy gonna 772 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:13,270 make with things like that it's really 773 00:35:18,089 --> 00:35:16,690 simple primal things which we don't have 774 00:35:20,099 --> 00:35:18,099 control over them if they're just 775 00:35:21,569 --> 00:35:20,109 natural thing that you can't write what 776 00:35:24,420 --> 00:35:21,579 your relation is when you look at 777 00:35:27,510 --> 00:35:24,430 someone you find attractive yeah yeah 778 00:35:29,849 --> 00:35:27,520 and I think it's um I think conspiracy 779 00:35:33,270 --> 00:35:29,859 theories kind of work with that same 780 00:35:36,599 --> 00:35:33,280 part of our brain a little bit because 781 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:36,609 like actual conspiracies I think you 782 00:35:38,849 --> 00:35:36,970 would 783 00:35:40,859 --> 00:35:38,859 probably agree our just kind of like the 784 00:35:44,550 --> 00:35:40,869 way that a lot of work gets done in the 785 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:44,560 world like it's in football I mean it's 786 00:35:49,650 --> 00:35:46,810 in everything corruption 787 00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:49,660 yeah corruption of course I always 788 00:35:53,630 --> 00:35:51,250 forget to mention that and people think 789 00:35:58,520 --> 00:35:53,640 I just believe everything the government 790 00:36:03,329 --> 00:35:58,530 just yeah no nobody nobody believes that 791 00:36:06,329 --> 00:36:03,339 always check it but but I think that's 792 00:36:08,099 --> 00:36:06,339 also kind of part of that evolutionary 793 00:36:12,329 --> 00:36:08,109 brain where we're always kind of going 794 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:12,339 how can I use a coalition to defeat that 795 00:36:17,370 --> 00:36:14,530 coalition or something like that and so 796 00:36:21,089 --> 00:36:17,380 there are I mean it makes sense to me 797 00:36:23,130 --> 00:36:21,099 that we're kind of predisposed to 798 00:36:24,990 --> 00:36:23,140 believe in these things because our 799 00:36:28,140 --> 00:36:25,000 braids are basically big threat 800 00:36:30,059 --> 00:36:28,150 detection machines that yeah you know 801 00:36:33,059 --> 00:36:30,069 that's what they're trained to do is 802 00:36:34,980 --> 00:36:33,069 look for problems they said that they 803 00:36:37,500 --> 00:36:34,990 don't look for problems on a global 804 00:36:39,150 --> 00:36:37,510 scale or a national scale which is what 805 00:36:43,020 --> 00:36:39,160 conspiracies are they're looking for 806 00:36:45,030 --> 00:36:43,030 problems like within the tribe so your 807 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:45,040 brain is trying to apply these these 808 00:36:48,630 --> 00:36:47,050 thought processes that work within a 809 00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:48,640 tribe like me and maybe that guy is 810 00:36:53,190 --> 00:36:51,730 stealing my food you know the people 811 00:36:56,069 --> 00:36:53,200 across the other side of the hill are 812 00:36:58,109 --> 00:36:56,079 bad we should protect ourselves against 813 00:36:59,700 --> 00:36:58,119 those people like these things these 814 00:37:01,050 --> 00:36:59,710 very primitive things that work well 815 00:37:02,250 --> 00:37:01,060 when you're in a little trouble unit 816 00:37:04,290 --> 00:37:02,260 they don't work well when you're 817 00:37:05,490 --> 00:37:04,300 operating on a on a broader scale and 818 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:05,500 you're trying to think you know what's 819 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:09,130 the motivation of the government when 820 00:37:12,839 --> 00:37:11,050 you're saying you you it's the same way 821 00:37:15,180 --> 00:37:12,849 you're thinking about whatever there's a 822 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:15,190 tribal leader you know ten thousand 823 00:37:19,589 --> 00:37:17,410 years ago you know thinking about the 824 00:37:22,140 --> 00:37:19,599 president who has a completely different 825 00:37:25,230 --> 00:37:22,150 set of priorities to some guy who has a 826 00:37:27,210 --> 00:37:25,240 tribe with fifty people in it yeah you 827 00:37:30,620 --> 00:37:27,220 know they're because it's not the same 828 00:37:32,910 --> 00:37:30,630 situation you get these primitive 829 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:32,920 instincts and there's these primitive 830 00:37:39,870 --> 00:37:36,970 natural biases and predilections for 831 00:37:41,460 --> 00:37:39,880 things that works in the past now don't 832 00:37:43,890 --> 00:37:41,470 work and this kind of corruption of 833 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:43,900 those leads to things like conspiracy 834 00:37:47,599 --> 00:37:47,050 theories I think it's part of my theory 835 00:37:51,020 --> 00:37:47,609 anyway 836 00:37:54,930 --> 00:37:51,030 yeah so what do you think 837 00:37:57,060 --> 00:37:54,940 so is I was just talking to my my boss 838 00:37:59,670 --> 00:37:57,070 and he was making fun of Flat Earth 839 00:38:01,020 --> 00:37:59,680 hearse today you know I was telling him 840 00:38:04,260 --> 00:38:01,030 that I don't think it's very useful to 841 00:38:07,380 --> 00:38:04,270 make fun of them or to call them dumb or 842 00:38:09,510 --> 00:38:07,390 anything I said that they're probably 843 00:38:12,150 --> 00:38:09,520 just don't have access to all the 844 00:38:14,580 --> 00:38:12,160 information that you or I might think we 845 00:38:20,670 --> 00:38:14,590 have and then they're probably sincere 846 00:38:22,859 --> 00:38:20,680 truth seekers and but what you want to 847 00:38:26,130 --> 00:38:22,869 do what's your tickets like that on the 848 00:38:28,140 --> 00:38:26,140 rise like flat or deeply it kind of is I 849 00:38:30,510 --> 00:38:28,150 think it had its moment where it's it 850 00:38:32,460 --> 00:38:30,520 kind of bumped up partly because of 851 00:38:33,870 --> 00:38:32,470 YouTube's algorithms which you know 852 00:38:35,820 --> 00:38:33,880 they've kind of changed that now if you 853 00:38:37,410 --> 00:38:35,830 look for flood earth on YouTube you 854 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:37,420 don't get the flat earther video so much 855 00:38:42,990 --> 00:38:40,690 you get you get articles from BuzzFeed 856 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:43,000 or whatever about Flat Earth so I think 857 00:38:47,550 --> 00:38:45,130 it's kind of had this moment where there 858 00:38:50,370 --> 00:38:47,560 was this kind of it went viral in a way 859 00:38:51,990 --> 00:38:50,380 and a lot of I've been looking at it but 860 00:38:54,390 --> 00:38:52,000 I don't think there's anything other 861 00:38:55,950 --> 00:38:54,400 than that which is driving this this 862 00:38:58,170 --> 00:38:55,960 interesting flat earth it's just this 863 00:39:02,910 --> 00:38:58,180 viral thing yeah I think the flight of 864 00:39:05,550 --> 00:39:02,920 people they encompass to a large extent 865 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:05,560 the same range as ordinary people yeah 866 00:39:09,030 --> 00:39:07,090 you let's talk about the bell curve 867 00:39:11,550 --> 00:39:09,040 distribution of things like intelligence 868 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:11,560 and ability and most people are in the 869 00:39:18,359 --> 00:39:14,890 middle 99% of the people are you know in 870 00:39:20,190 --> 00:39:18,369 a fairly you know not narrow but not 871 00:39:21,690 --> 00:39:20,200 deeply wide range in the middle and then 872 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:21,700 you got very intelligent people off 873 00:39:25,770 --> 00:39:23,530 often one side and you got a lot of 874 00:39:26,970 --> 00:39:25,780 people you know half of the half of the 875 00:39:30,780 --> 00:39:26,980 people in the world are below average 876 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:30,790 intelligence which no one likes to think 877 00:39:37,260 --> 00:39:31,810 that they might be below average 878 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:37,270 intelligence but no one even likes to 879 00:39:40,050 --> 00:39:38,650 think that their friends might be below 880 00:39:41,340 --> 00:39:40,060 average intelligence as well because 881 00:39:43,349 --> 00:39:41,350 it's gonna rubs off on you by 882 00:39:45,690 --> 00:39:43,359 association so everyone like thinks oh 883 00:39:48,599 --> 00:39:45,700 yeah I'm like my IQs 120 when the 884 00:39:50,550 --> 00:39:48,609 average IQ is 100 so obviously there's 885 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:50,560 going to be lots of people out there who 886 00:39:54,599 --> 00:39:52,930 are not intelligent and they're not 887 00:39:56,700 --> 00:39:54,609 believes in the flat earth yeah the 888 00:39:58,349 --> 00:39:56,710 people who the people who actually are 889 00:40:00,390 --> 00:39:58,359 eaten Flat Earth a lot of them I think 890 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:00,400 they have reasonably high IQs if 891 00:40:03,140 --> 00:40:02,170 anything they think a little bit too 892 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:03,150 much 893 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:06,330 ya know but those truths you know once 894 00:40:11,270 --> 00:40:08,130 you see him for the first time like I'm 895 00:40:13,100 --> 00:40:11,280 not I don't know math very well and I 896 00:40:15,260 --> 00:40:13,110 look at some of those and they're very 897 00:40:16,940 --> 00:40:15,270 confusing like I'm like wow well that 898 00:40:19,700 --> 00:40:16,950 does kind of make sense and why is that 899 00:40:21,980 --> 00:40:19,710 and you know I do you know believe in 900 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:21,990 pictures from NASA and stuff so I can 901 00:40:28,220 --> 00:40:24,090 easily say uh that's a bunch of hooey 902 00:40:32,570 --> 00:40:28,230 but some people like the woman that you 903 00:40:34,550 --> 00:40:32,580 interviewed Sasha yeah she was she 904 00:40:36,350 --> 00:40:34,560 wanted to find out for herself and 905 00:40:39,230 --> 00:40:36,360 that's you know that's respectable I 906 00:40:42,710 --> 00:40:39,240 think it is but if you can't do the math 907 00:40:44,780 --> 00:40:42,720 then how are you going to do it how are 908 00:40:47,570 --> 00:40:44,790 you going to determine what's real life 909 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:47,580 isn't if you come if you don't really 910 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:50,370 have the mental tools to do it a lot of 911 00:40:56,330 --> 00:40:52,770 people feel like they should be able to 912 00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:56,340 figure it out but you know they they 913 00:40:59,600 --> 00:40:57,570 don't know the math so that they can 914 00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:59,610 only could a certain distance along with 915 00:41:02,810 --> 00:41:01,440 the explanation and then you know they 916 00:41:06,590 --> 00:41:02,820 can't figure out what their radius of 917 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:06,600 the earth is so yeah I just learned 918 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:08,010 about something called the it's not the 919 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:11,130 loser it still it's like the illusion of 920 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:14,130 Hugh being able to explain something and 921 00:41:19,190 --> 00:41:16,410 uh you know talking about people will 922 00:41:24,110 --> 00:41:19,200 say with high confidence they could tell 923 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:24,120 you how a toilet works when they try to 924 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:26,610 explain how it works and then they can't 925 00:41:31,940 --> 00:41:30,330 yeah well then say no I'm not very 926 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:31,950 confident in my ability to explain 927 00:41:37,700 --> 00:41:34,890 something and so that's a great example 928 00:41:40,910 --> 00:41:37,710 but I was thinking yeah it's the 929 00:41:43,490 --> 00:41:40,920 examples to give her a toilet zipper and 930 00:41:45,470 --> 00:41:43,500 a ballpoint pen which I can't tell you 931 00:41:47,090 --> 00:41:45,480 how many of those things yeah that's it 932 00:41:48,830 --> 00:41:47,100 anyone should go out and try to explain 933 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:48,840 those if they think they're they're good 934 00:41:56,660 --> 00:41:51,050 at understanding and explaining things 935 00:41:59,720 --> 00:41:56,670 right but it brings up then why we 936 00:42:03,350 --> 00:41:59,730 should value people who are experts in 937 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:03,360 their field and authorities and really 938 00:42:09,710 --> 00:42:07,290 like I think my old debate coach used to 939 00:42:12,140 --> 00:42:09,720 tell me that I think there's value to 940 00:42:13,610 --> 00:42:12,150 the our national parks even if you never 941 00:42:14,030 --> 00:42:13,620 go to them because you just know they're 942 00:42:16,670 --> 00:42:14,040 there 943 00:42:19,220 --> 00:42:16,680 and the same thing with 944 00:42:20,870 --> 00:42:19,230 with experts in the field like there 945 00:42:22,730 --> 00:42:20,880 there there are people who devote their 946 00:42:24,859 --> 00:42:22,740 whole life like with climate change 947 00:42:26,890 --> 00:42:24,869 there's a great communicator on climate 948 00:42:29,270 --> 00:42:26,900 change her name is Katharine Hayhoe and 949 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:29,280 she's accessible like I've sent her 950 00:42:34,940 --> 00:42:31,290 messages on facebook and she's replied 951 00:42:39,410 --> 00:42:34,950 with you know an expert opinion on 952 00:42:41,690 --> 00:42:39,420 things and so yeah I think people people 953 00:42:45,260 --> 00:42:41,700 should understand that their sphere of 954 00:42:46,730 --> 00:42:45,270 influence is as big as anyone you can 955 00:42:48,859 --> 00:42:46,740 talk to like if you could talk to 956 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:48,869 somebody that's the person is in your 957 00:42:54,950 --> 00:42:52,770 sphere of influence and and the same is 958 00:42:57,980 --> 00:42:54,960 true with experts in we can you can call 959 00:43:00,230 --> 00:42:57,990 up David Keith and talk to him and man 960 00:43:03,559 --> 00:43:00,240 what that was just a great interview I 961 00:43:05,630 --> 00:43:03,569 loved it yeah David Keith is he's very 962 00:43:08,299 --> 00:43:05,640 accessible he's interesting he's a 963 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:08,309 target of conspiracy theorists yeah and 964 00:43:12,099 --> 00:43:10,050 he's not not afraid of talking to them 965 00:43:14,569 --> 00:43:12,109 he will actually go and actually hold 966 00:43:16,670 --> 00:43:14,579 discussions with with conspiracy 967 00:43:18,980 --> 00:43:16,680 theorists and try to explain things to 968 00:43:22,099 --> 00:43:18,990 them cuz he yeah he's a guy who he cares 969 00:43:23,660 --> 00:43:22,109 about people yeah he's concerned I think 970 00:43:26,089 --> 00:43:23,670 here for the people themselves but also 971 00:43:28,700 --> 00:43:26,099 for the harm that they might do he said 972 00:43:30,589 --> 00:43:28,710 he's had death threats yeah which is 973 00:43:33,700 --> 00:43:30,599 which is pretty terrible you know so bad 974 00:43:36,829 --> 00:43:33,710 all this complete misunderstanding and 975 00:43:38,780 --> 00:43:36,839 you know people yeah I think they're the 976 00:43:42,559 --> 00:43:38,790 promoters of these conspiracy theorists 977 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:42,569 I really need to consider what they're 978 00:43:49,609 --> 00:43:45,690 doing see the thing is that these 979 00:43:52,039 --> 00:43:49,619 promoters think that they are correct so 980 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:52,049 say you know Dane Wigington he thinks 981 00:43:56,780 --> 00:43:54,210 that he is correct in saying that David 982 00:44:02,210 --> 00:43:56,790 Keith is is part of some giant plot 983 00:44:03,980 --> 00:44:02,220 right sir but he's causing harm but from 984 00:44:06,349 --> 00:44:03,990 his perspective he thinks he's doing the 985 00:44:09,380 --> 00:44:06,359 right thing which he makes it very very 986 00:44:12,170 --> 00:44:09,390 difficult to to me if we can't tell him 987 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:12,180 oh don't be mean to David Keith anything 988 00:44:14,780 --> 00:44:13,650 what I'm trying to save the world what 989 00:44:16,370 --> 00:44:14,790 would you expect me to do you've 990 00:44:18,470 --> 00:44:16,380 actually got to address his conspiracy 991 00:44:21,380 --> 00:44:18,480 theory rather than just you know tell 992 00:44:23,809 --> 00:44:21,390 him to keep it to himself if he could 993 00:44:28,039 --> 00:44:23,819 only listen to David Keith's words then 994 00:44:29,720 --> 00:44:28,049 maybe he could be this yeah getting 995 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:29,730 through to people 996 00:44:32,900 --> 00:44:31,410 lady with a flat earth befall is 997 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:32,910 obviously very hard because they don't 998 00:44:36,980 --> 00:44:35,490 have the mental tools to understand 999 00:44:38,540 --> 00:44:36,990 things there's a lot of flat of stuff is 1000 00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:38,550 complicated there's the math and the 1001 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:40,050 geometry involved you know how high is 1002 00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:42,330 the horizon but some of the other stuff 1003 00:44:50,150 --> 00:44:44,250 like the chemtrails isn't that 1004 00:44:52,250 --> 00:44:50,160 complicated there's this claim that the 1005 00:44:55,340 --> 00:44:52,260 Dane Wigington makes about high-bypass 1006 00:44:57,020 --> 00:44:55,350 jet engines right he says that 1007 00:44:59,870 --> 00:44:57,030 high-bypass jet engines can't make 1008 00:45:02,060 --> 00:44:59,880 contrails and then he kind of gives this 1009 00:45:04,130 --> 00:45:02,070 explanation in terms of Sciences as 1010 00:45:08,660 --> 00:45:04,140 always most of the thrust comes from air 1011 00:45:11,150 --> 00:45:08,670 and the air wouldn't make contrails no 1012 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:11,160 it's yeah I guess I could see how people 1013 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:12,690 could not understand what the problem 1014 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:14,010 with where that is but you know the 1015 00:45:17,450 --> 00:45:15,930 simple answer to you know why they make 1016 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:17,460 contrails is that the contrail is made 1017 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:20,010 by the jet exhaust it isn't made by the 1018 00:45:23,630 --> 00:45:22,410 thing that creates the thrust it's not 1019 00:45:25,790 --> 00:45:23,640 made by what's being pressed out it's 1020 00:45:28,070 --> 00:45:25,800 made out you know the the fuel is burnt 1021 00:45:29,780 --> 00:45:28,080 it creates exhaust that gets shut out 1022 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:29,790 the back and that mixes with the air and 1023 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:32,970 that makes a contrail but how do you get 1024 00:45:38,810 --> 00:45:36,690 that across to people I think I think 1025 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:38,820 what Winton has the tools the mental 1026 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:40,650 tools to understand it but he's 1027 00:45:44,810 --> 00:45:43,170 completely resistant to listening to 1028 00:45:49,190 --> 00:45:44,820 anything that will contradict his 1029 00:45:50,450 --> 00:45:49,200 beliefs yeah that's what the other guy 1030 00:45:53,090 --> 00:45:50,460 you interviewed that didn't want to be 1031 00:45:55,490 --> 00:45:53,100 shown he remember he just said that you 1032 00:45:58,460 --> 00:45:55,500 know it would just block every single 1033 00:46:02,120 --> 00:45:58,470 comment and just pay it no mind 1034 00:46:04,730 --> 00:46:02,130 you know just block it and move on so I 1035 00:46:07,849 --> 00:46:04,740 mentioned that I have trouble now with 1036 00:46:10,070 --> 00:46:07,859 the word truth and the term belief 1037 00:46:15,109 --> 00:46:10,080 because it's hard for me to believe in 1038 00:46:17,630 --> 00:46:15,119 anything or everything like I believe in 1039 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:17,640 everything equally or hard to believe in 1040 00:46:22,810 --> 00:46:19,130 anything 1041 00:46:26,540 --> 00:46:22,820 have you what do you think about beliefs 1042 00:46:29,570 --> 00:46:26,550 well yeah beliefs is interesting you 1043 00:46:31,490 --> 00:46:29,580 familiar with epistemology that's the 1044 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:31,500 study of beliefs right this study yes 1045 00:46:37,010 --> 00:46:33,690 the study of knowledge knowledge okay 1046 00:46:40,820 --> 00:46:37,020 which gets defined as justified true 1047 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:40,830 beliefs so a belief is just simply 1048 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:42,450 something that you personally think it 1049 00:46:47,569 --> 00:46:43,410 is true 1050 00:46:48,980 --> 00:46:47,579 that this pen is red and you can't see 1051 00:46:52,190 --> 00:46:48,990 the pen so you're gonna have to trust it 1052 00:46:53,990 --> 00:46:52,200 trust press I have a pen here it is red 1053 00:46:57,849 --> 00:46:54,000 it looks right I believe that it to be 1054 00:47:00,410 --> 00:46:57,859 red I'm justified in in this belief 1055 00:47:02,660 --> 00:47:00,420 because the the wavelengths of light 1056 00:47:03,950 --> 00:47:02,670 that are hitting my eye are red and it's 1057 00:47:05,990 --> 00:47:03,960 actually true it is actually a red pen 1058 00:47:08,150 --> 00:47:06,000 so this is this is knowledge I have 1059 00:47:10,910 --> 00:47:08,160 knowledge now that this this pen is red 1060 00:47:12,140 --> 00:47:10,920 but then the epistemology is the 1061 00:47:15,260 --> 00:47:12,150 Philosopher's they get into all these 1062 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:15,270 little little linguistic tricks what if 1063 00:47:19,579 --> 00:47:17,970 you believe something to be true and it 1064 00:47:21,799 --> 00:47:19,589 was actually true but your reason for 1065 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:21,809 believing it was false and false yeah 1066 00:47:30,109 --> 00:47:25,170 yeah like if you if you believe somebody 1067 00:47:33,710 --> 00:47:30,119 was dead because you've read an obituary 1068 00:47:37,250 --> 00:47:33,720 of them in the paper but the obituaries 1069 00:47:38,990 --> 00:47:37,260 was wrong it was actually about somebody 1070 00:47:40,460 --> 00:47:39,000 else but they were actually dead anyway 1071 00:47:43,099 --> 00:47:40,470 he was just like another person of the 1072 00:47:44,779 --> 00:47:43,109 same name was also dead do you know that 1073 00:47:49,730 --> 00:47:44,789 person is dead you know you have a 1074 00:47:52,970 --> 00:47:49,740 belief which is true and it's it's not 1075 00:47:54,950 --> 00:47:52,980 justified yeah I think you can tie 1076 00:47:58,930 --> 00:47:54,960 yourself up in knots with these things 1077 00:48:03,230 --> 00:47:58,940 and it's it's a bit silly in a way I 1078 00:48:07,250 --> 00:48:03,240 think that I really wanted to believe in 1079 00:48:12,250 --> 00:48:07,260 a lot of stuff back when I was in the 1080 00:48:16,510 --> 00:48:12,260 rabbit hole like I've kind of like 1081 00:48:20,900 --> 00:48:16,520 parallel to Rory story I had a lot of 1082 00:48:23,930 --> 00:48:20,910 religious and spiritual journeys with 1083 00:48:26,630 --> 00:48:23,940 different paths and at one point I was 1084 00:48:31,609 --> 00:48:26,640 just like they're all part of one big 1085 00:48:34,039 --> 00:48:31,619 path man and you know kinda was willing 1086 00:48:36,529 --> 00:48:34,049 to believe everything like give me your 1087 00:48:39,740 --> 00:48:36,539 beliefs I can take them all in and I can 1088 00:48:42,010 --> 00:48:39,750 hold them all in my brain or my whatever 1089 00:48:46,549 --> 00:48:42,020 and I just really wanted to believe in 1090 00:48:48,950 --> 00:48:46,559 everything then the more extreme the 1091 00:48:52,609 --> 00:48:48,960 better because it was it kind of gives 1092 00:48:54,750 --> 00:48:52,619 you a little what oxytocin or something 1093 00:48:59,609 --> 00:48:54,760 like that serotonin 1094 00:49:01,950 --> 00:48:59,619 yeah Edie but now I just find it hard to 1095 00:49:04,710 --> 00:49:01,960 believe and anything except for 1096 00:49:07,020 --> 00:49:04,720 debunking it's like you you were 1097 00:49:09,060 --> 00:49:07,030 believing things without justification 1098 00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:09,070 back then you were believing things 1099 00:49:14,580 --> 00:49:10,650 because they sounded like a good idea 1100 00:49:18,330 --> 00:49:14,590 like an a they they seemed like good 1101 00:49:21,180 --> 00:49:18,340 things to believe in yeah well and also 1102 00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:21,190 just the act the openness to beliefs I 1103 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:23,290 think some people feel you know at the 1104 00:49:27,030 --> 00:49:25,570 time in their lives they feel that's a 1105 00:49:28,260 --> 00:49:27,040 very positive thing like the Flat Earth 1106 00:49:30,690 --> 00:49:28,270 lady Sascha 1107 00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:30,700 yeah he said like he was very liberating 1108 00:49:35,340 --> 00:49:33,730 to believe in things or lay open your 1109 00:49:38,430 --> 00:49:35,350 her mind to the possibility of these 1110 00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:38,440 things and just this open-mindedness 1111 00:49:42,090 --> 00:49:40,450 people just really enjoy I said maybe 1112 00:49:45,150 --> 00:49:42,100 this is true maybe this is true I can I 1113 00:49:47,430 --> 00:49:45,160 can't believe anything now yeah yeah 1114 00:49:51,150 --> 00:49:47,440 that reminds me of that website the mind 1115 00:49:52,859 --> 00:49:51,160 Unleashed sometimes I read the post from 1116 00:49:55,770 --> 00:49:52,869 that my friends share from the mind 1117 00:49:57,060 --> 00:49:55,780 unleashed and I'm like no you should not 1118 00:50:01,349 --> 00:49:57,070 have a mind at least you should have a 1119 00:50:02,730 --> 00:50:01,359 mind not on a leash well I think it 1120 00:50:04,470 --> 00:50:02,740 comes back to the to evidence and that's 1121 00:50:07,290 --> 00:50:04,480 what skepticism is about 1122 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:07,300 I mean skepticism basically means show 1123 00:50:12,349 --> 00:50:10,330 me the evidence for this belief yes you 1124 00:50:15,810 --> 00:50:12,359 don't accept a belief without evidence 1125 00:50:18,420 --> 00:50:15,820 without the justification for the belief 1126 00:50:22,170 --> 00:50:18,430 you know truth I think is something that 1127 00:50:23,460 --> 00:50:22,180 is is hard to determine absolutely but 1128 00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:23,470 you can certainly look at what the 1129 00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:25,450 evidence is you know I've very good 1130 00:50:29,250 --> 00:50:27,970 evidence about my red pen here right I 1131 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:29,260 could take I could take a photograph of 1132 00:50:32,820 --> 00:50:30,850 it and put it into Photoshop and click 1133 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:32,830 on it and they will say red you know 1134 00:50:36,060 --> 00:50:34,450 there's a very very strong evidence for 1135 00:50:38,790 --> 00:50:36,070 things like that and we have very strong 1136 00:50:40,830 --> 00:50:38,800 evidence that the world is a sphere and 1137 00:50:43,230 --> 00:50:40,840 we have very strong evidence that the 1138 00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:43,240 fires and the impacts are what brought 1139 00:50:47,070 --> 00:50:45,130 down the World Trade Center we have very 1140 00:50:49,830 --> 00:50:47,080 strong evidence that the the lines 1141 00:50:51,450 --> 00:50:49,840 people see in the sky act exactly the 1142 00:50:52,890 --> 00:50:51,460 same as contrails because we know what 1143 00:50:54,720 --> 00:50:52,900 contrails are like and we know the 1144 00:50:57,030 --> 00:50:54,730 physics of contrails and clouds and 1145 00:50:59,849 --> 00:50:57,040 things so we have all this evidence for 1146 00:51:01,470 --> 00:50:59,859 these things so it's it's fine to 1147 00:51:03,300 --> 00:51:01,480 believe in them because they've got 1148 00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:03,310 strong evidence you can always have that 1149 00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:04,450 doubt you can always have that little 1150 00:51:07,810 --> 00:51:06,730 iota of doubt when maybe it isn't true 1151 00:51:10,390 --> 00:51:07,820 is some new evidence 1152 00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:10,400 so long maybe the evidence isn't 100% 1153 00:51:14,350 --> 00:51:12,650 maybe which is 99% but then that doesn't 1154 00:51:16,180 --> 00:51:14,360 mean you should go off and believe in 1155 00:51:19,240 --> 00:51:16,190 something else which only has 1% of 1156 00:51:22,780 --> 00:51:19,250 evidence writing some silly theory like 1157 00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:22,790 like chemtrails anyway call people silly 1158 00:51:29,530 --> 00:51:26,450 but that the theory is really the one 1159 00:51:34,260 --> 00:51:29,540 thing that David Keith said that I wish 1160 00:51:39,940 --> 00:51:34,270 he didn't was that he said that they're 1161 00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:39,950 not trying or willingly fooling 1162 00:51:43,270 --> 00:51:42,050 themselves I can't remember exactly how 1163 00:51:46,240 --> 00:51:43,280 I said but he did say that they're not 1164 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:46,250 trying and I just know that you know to 1165 00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:50,210 somebody who believes in that conspiracy 1166 00:51:55,720 --> 00:51:53,090 theory that would be insulting to them 1167 00:52:00,310 --> 00:51:55,730 you know and you know wouldn't be super 1168 00:52:01,660 --> 00:52:00,320 useful yeah a lot of people who yea they 1169 00:52:05,290 --> 00:52:01,670 feel like that they've done a lot of 1170 00:52:07,930 --> 00:52:05,300 research yes that's something they will 1171 00:52:09,820 --> 00:52:07,940 say you know I've done my research right 1172 00:52:12,540 --> 00:52:09,830 I'm almost become a joke in a way like 1173 00:52:15,310 --> 00:52:12,550 you go do your own research 1174 00:52:16,900 --> 00:52:15,320 hello if I do any research I gladly 1175 00:52:21,220 --> 00:52:16,910 share it with anybody 1176 00:52:23,260 --> 00:52:21,230 yeah yes it's a bit silly like telling a 1177 00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:23,270 scientist to go do your own research 1178 00:52:28,510 --> 00:52:24,650 I mean sure he'll do his own research 1179 00:52:31,990 --> 00:52:28,520 but you have some research then yeah 1180 00:52:32,710 --> 00:52:32,000 let's let's hear it yeah and it's 1181 00:52:34,690 --> 00:52:32,720 something it's kind of a 1182 00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:34,700 get-out-of-jail-free card like that 1183 00:52:39,580 --> 00:52:36,530 that people play when they don't want to 1184 00:52:41,500 --> 00:52:39,590 continue the discussion but it's also 1185 00:52:45,250 --> 00:52:41,510 because the research they have done is 1186 00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:45,260 difficult to communicate yeah like a guy 1187 00:52:49,750 --> 00:52:47,210 emailed me today and he was trying to 1188 00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:49,760 tell me about his theory about something 1189 00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:51,530 to do with 911 like there was seven high 1190 00:52:55,300 --> 00:52:53,090 jet four six hijackers instead of five 1191 00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:55,310 hijackers and he said just watch this 1192 00:52:59,440 --> 00:52:57,410 video and he sent me an hour and a half 1193 00:53:00,880 --> 00:52:59,450 long video and then I asked him to 1194 00:53:04,060 --> 00:53:00,890 summarize it and then he sent me this 1195 00:53:05,740 --> 00:53:04,070 long explanation of what what the video 1196 00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:05,750 was about and I still really didn't get 1197 00:53:13,900 --> 00:53:07,610 it because it was just this long kind of 1198 00:53:16,260 --> 00:53:13,910 rambling explanation yes no it wasn't it 1199 00:53:18,790 --> 00:53:16,270 was recently well written okay I think 1200 00:53:21,490 --> 00:53:18,800 he was something that in his mind it 1201 00:53:23,530 --> 00:53:21,500 made sense right but because 1202 00:53:25,420 --> 00:53:23,540 he's done all this research he's watched 1203 00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:25,430 all these loads and loads of videos and 1204 00:53:28,510 --> 00:53:26,930 he's chemtrail people they watch all 1205 00:53:30,550 --> 00:53:28,520 these these videos and for them it makes 1206 00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:30,560 sense and then they try to explain it to 1207 00:53:34,930 --> 00:53:32,090 you and they can't they say oh you got 1208 00:53:37,630 --> 00:53:34,940 to watch you watch this video you got to 1209 00:53:40,060 --> 00:53:37,640 watch what is it the shade video and the 1210 00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:40,070 what in the world are there spraying and 1211 00:53:42,310 --> 00:53:41,090 then you're gonna watch all these other 1212 00:53:43,720 --> 00:53:42,320 videos and then watch all the day and 1213 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:43,730 waiting for those videos and then read 1214 00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:46,850 this book and then you'll understand so 1215 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:48,410 they can't communicate it to you because 1216 00:53:56,740 --> 00:53:50,810 it's it's too much research in a way 1217 00:53:59,260 --> 00:53:56,750 yeah yeah yeah that's my experience too 1218 00:54:01,600 --> 00:53:59,270 I get this one guy that just sends me 1219 00:54:04,150 --> 00:54:01,610 videos all the time and I'm just like I 1220 00:54:05,770 --> 00:54:04,160 won't watch your videos that's why I 1221 00:54:07,750 --> 00:54:05,780 talk about artists 1222 00:54:10,510 --> 00:54:07,760 cuz I don't want to watch a three hour 1223 00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:10,520 long video about lizard people or 1224 00:54:16,330 --> 00:54:14,690 whatever yeah but for them it seems like 1225 00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:16,340 the most important thing ever this was a 1226 00:54:19,510 --> 00:54:17,930 video that opened their mind to a 1227 00:54:21,100 --> 00:54:19,520 fundamental truth that was hidden to 1228 00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:21,110 everybody and they used language 1229 00:54:26,380 --> 00:54:24,050 religious type language oh this is the 1230 00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:26,390 truth with a capital T and they talk 1231 00:54:32,770 --> 00:54:30,170 about you know you they say to me you 1232 00:54:34,750 --> 00:54:32,780 know you're crazy because you believe 1233 00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:34,760 this and I'm talking about something 1234 00:54:40,750 --> 00:54:37,850 that I don't believe that they translate 1235 00:54:43,810 --> 00:54:40,760 that into well if you don't believe this 1236 00:54:45,310 --> 00:54:43,820 then must believe that the government 1237 00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:45,320 always tells the truth there's something 1238 00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:49,010 like that mm-hmm and so I haven't really 1239 00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:52,400 been able to like get through to this 1240 00:54:56,740 --> 00:54:53,930 one guy that I've been trying to talk to 1241 00:54:59,860 --> 00:54:56,750 he's so his line of demarcation would 1242 00:55:04,630 --> 00:54:59,870 probably be all the way at ten really 1243 00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:04,640 yeah it's got the Oh something about 1244 00:55:14,950 --> 00:55:09,410 some a new Kyra lygian involves with the 1245 00:55:18,910 --> 00:55:14,960 Pope and the some structure at the 1246 00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:18,920 Vatican and really looks like like a 1247 00:55:24,550 --> 00:55:21,290 serpent head or something like that so 1248 00:55:25,930 --> 00:55:24,560 he's about as far down as you can go but 1249 00:55:31,300 --> 00:55:25,940 he runs the whole gamut 1250 00:55:34,060 --> 00:55:31,310 you know he's ex-military you went to my 1251 00:55:35,420 --> 00:55:34,070 high school I he's reasonably smart I've 1252 00:55:39,780 --> 00:55:35,430 talked to him on the phone 1253 00:55:42,240 --> 00:55:39,790 but he gets and he talks about he takes 1254 00:55:43,859 --> 00:55:42,250 he sees patterns and things also like 1255 00:55:45,990 --> 00:55:43,869 he'll take a bunch of pictures of clouds 1256 00:55:50,010 --> 00:55:46,000 and say look there's a dragon in this 1257 00:55:54,319 --> 00:55:50,020 one and he'll take pictures of like rock 1258 00:55:56,849 --> 00:55:54,329 structures and say he sees like old 1259 00:56:00,390 --> 00:55:56,859 parts of people at him and stuff you 1260 00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:00,400 know yeah so he's got like I'm almost 1261 00:56:06,390 --> 00:56:02,770 wondering like should I be talking to 1262 00:56:09,870 --> 00:56:06,400 this guy because my maybe there's maybe 1263 00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:09,880 he is some might have some mental stuff 1264 00:56:15,809 --> 00:56:13,450 going on and I just wonder if idea I 1265 00:56:18,690 --> 00:56:15,819 think you know eventually you know you 1266 00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:18,700 do meet people who do have actual mental 1267 00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:19,930 issues I mean sometimes they're just 1268 00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:22,930 people who are you know not neurotypical 1269 00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:24,490 they've they've got their brain is just 1270 00:56:28,589 --> 00:56:26,170 wired a bit differently which isn't 1271 00:56:30,569 --> 00:56:28,599 necessarily like this this bad negative 1272 00:56:33,690 --> 00:56:30,579 thing know what's good that's great but 1273 00:56:37,170 --> 00:56:33,700 it can make them be you know they see 1274 00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:37,180 patterns and things where perhaps most 1275 00:56:40,380 --> 00:56:38,890 people wouldn't see patterns I sort of 1276 00:56:42,420 --> 00:56:40,390 look at something and they'll see a 1277 00:56:44,789 --> 00:56:42,430 pattern that isn't there because the 1278 00:56:47,609 --> 00:56:44,799 brain is very active in the you know 1279 00:56:49,890 --> 00:56:47,619 connecting the dots department yeah and 1280 00:56:52,079 --> 00:56:49,900 so it makes them more susceptible to 1281 00:56:53,609 --> 00:56:52,089 believing these types of things and then 1282 00:56:55,650 --> 00:56:53,619 they end up watching some videos that 1283 00:56:57,599 --> 00:56:55,660 connect the dots for them and then they 1284 00:56:59,819 --> 00:56:57,609 they kind of lost down the rabbit hole 1285 00:57:02,010 --> 00:56:59,829 and that can be very difficult to deal 1286 00:57:04,289 --> 00:57:02,020 with when someone really has you know 1287 00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:04,299 something something in their brain going 1288 00:57:09,329 --> 00:57:06,970 on that's you you can't really you can't 1289 00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:09,339 really reason past that it's it's a 1290 00:57:12,359 --> 00:57:10,690 tricky a tricky thing to deal with and 1291 00:57:15,510 --> 00:57:12,369 you know I'm no expert in that type of 1292 00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:15,520 thing so I I kind of had to say you know 1293 00:57:20,069 --> 00:57:17,410 leave it to the experts if that's you 1294 00:57:21,859 --> 00:57:20,079 know what's actually going on right no 1295 00:57:25,700 --> 00:57:21,869 it's like with your friend they're like 1296 00:57:27,809 --> 00:57:25,710 you know easy is it is it actually worth 1297 00:57:29,849 --> 00:57:27,819 attacking them not attacking them but 1298 00:57:32,549 --> 00:57:29,859 like attacking their beliefs like if 1299 00:57:35,940 --> 00:57:32,559 someone that was very devoutly religious 1300 00:57:39,089 --> 00:57:35,950 and the religion meant so much to them 1301 00:57:40,230 --> 00:57:39,099 yeah from my perspective most religions 1302 00:57:42,799 --> 00:57:40,240 you know I wouldn't say they're 1303 00:57:48,210 --> 00:57:42,809 irrational but I think they're wrong 1304 00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:48,220 yeah I wouldn't religious no and you 1305 00:57:50,970 --> 00:57:49,090 know if I have lost 1306 00:57:53,790 --> 00:57:50,980 religious relatives and I'm not gonna be 1307 00:57:55,650 --> 00:57:53,800 trying to convert them to atheism 1308 00:57:58,440 --> 00:57:55,660 because I know it's just such a 1309 00:58:01,110 --> 00:57:58,450 fundamental part of their lives and I 1310 00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:01,120 think you know if if it's not harming 1311 00:58:07,740 --> 00:58:04,570 them then you know why what's the 1312 00:58:11,130 --> 00:58:07,750 benefit and in destroying part of their 1313 00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:11,140 belief system it is harming them like as 1314 00:58:15,150 --> 00:58:12,850 people who believe in conspiracies there 1315 00:58:17,460 --> 00:58:15,160 is that that are harmful then yeah I can 1316 00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:17,470 see that but you know if your friend is 1317 00:58:22,710 --> 00:58:19,090 believing something that essentially is 1318 00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:22,720 their religion then it's it's perhaps 1319 00:58:25,890 --> 00:58:24,610 over the line in what what you should 1320 00:58:28,470 --> 00:58:25,900 address then what you got to do a 1321 00:58:30,270 --> 00:58:28,480 cost-benefit analysis yeah what this 1322 00:58:32,460 --> 00:58:30,280 person would you and your relationship 1323 00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:32,470 with this person benefit from attempting 1324 00:58:38,850 --> 00:58:35,290 to debunk it yeah well I wouldn't debunk 1325 00:58:41,310 --> 00:58:38,860 his like um spiritual beliefs like he 1326 00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:41,320 gets a spiritual camaraderie with the 1327 00:58:46,380 --> 00:58:44,170 people that share his views I understand 1328 00:58:49,290 --> 00:58:46,390 just from seeing his interactions online 1329 00:58:52,380 --> 00:58:49,300 like you know he'll post these pictures 1330 00:58:54,450 --> 00:58:52,390 of you know random things he'll it'll 1331 00:58:56,700 --> 00:58:54,460 draw in the clouds and say see there's 1332 00:58:59,180 --> 00:58:56,710 the dragon right there and people oh 1333 00:59:02,190 --> 00:58:59,190 you're so amazing what a blessed thing 1334 00:59:04,530 --> 00:59:02,200 yes I've seen groups like that on 1335 00:59:07,620 --> 00:59:04,540 Facebook and they're very supportive of 1336 00:59:08,730 --> 00:59:07,630 each other that's the thing and I you 1337 00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:08,740 know I don't want to mess with that 1338 00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:11,290 because that's you know positive to me 1339 00:59:18,390 --> 00:59:13,410 but the part that seems bad as where 1340 00:59:21,590 --> 00:59:18,400 well he's even a Q and on guy too and so 1341 00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:21,600 he's he's very sure of that one that 1342 00:59:33,090 --> 00:59:26,050 we're gonna see that's low level on the 1343 00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:33,100 conspiracy scale so I'd say it's in the 1344 00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:34,810 middle I guess because it's it is kind 1345 00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:38,530 of a bit strange but it's it's kind of 1346 00:59:42,300 --> 00:59:40,690 in a way almost mainstream as well 1347 00:59:43,830 --> 00:59:42,310 because you see these queueing on people 1348 00:59:46,290 --> 00:59:43,840 on TV and they're attending Trump 1349 00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:46,300 rallies and they're you know some ways 1350 00:59:51,510 --> 00:59:49,810 they're just ordinary voters who are big 1351 00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:51,520 fans of Trump who think that this is a 1352 00:59:55,650 --> 00:59:53,650 great thing that he's J you know kind of 1353 00:59:58,100 --> 00:59:55,660 low information people they don't really 1354 01:00:00,780 --> 00:59:58,110 have much understanding of of the world 1355 01:00:02,579 --> 01:00:00,790 but then that's okay some of them do 1356 01:00:05,700 --> 01:00:02,589 it's it's kind of weird you talk 1357 01:00:07,349 --> 01:00:05,710 them online and they they sometimes know 1358 01:00:10,589 --> 01:00:07,359 quite a bit about politics and yet 1359 01:00:12,749 --> 01:00:10,599 they've got this weird idea it's I need 1360 01:00:14,700 --> 01:00:12,759 to talk to more queuing on people that's 1361 01:00:18,269 --> 01:00:14,710 right they're an interesting Bunch 1362 01:00:20,609 --> 01:00:18,279 especially now that uh yeah I think QR 1363 01:00:22,529 --> 01:00:20,619 Nolan is basically being it's going away 1364 01:00:24,539 --> 01:00:22,539 hasn't really posted for a while and a 1365 01:00:28,380 --> 01:00:24,549 channel is being shut down and maybe 1366 01:00:32,009 --> 01:00:28,390 4chan - oh wait so Q and on hasn't been 1367 01:00:34,979 --> 01:00:32,019 doing releases or whatever that is yeah 1368 01:00:36,690 --> 01:00:34,989 the breadcrumbs I think I think it's 1369 01:00:39,539 --> 01:00:36,700 decreased a lot I'm not very familiar I 1370 01:00:42,870 --> 01:00:39,549 saw that because the molar investigation 1371 01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:42,880 came out and it really was about yeah I 1372 01:00:48,900 --> 01:00:45,450 think maybe it's just as run its course 1373 01:00:51,779 --> 01:00:48,910 yes the some some guy behind it here's 1374 01:00:53,249 --> 01:00:51,789 some person behind it it's just pulling 1375 01:00:55,019 --> 01:00:53,259 the strings yeah it's like a bunch of 1376 01:00:57,089 --> 01:00:55,029 people doing it and they're they've had 1377 01:01:00,509 --> 01:00:57,099 been having a lot of fun it's 1378 01:01:03,479 --> 01:01:00,519 interactive yeah yes part of this thing 1379 01:01:06,150 --> 01:01:03,489 it is it's a game it's a it's a lot as 1380 01:01:11,940 --> 01:01:06,160 they as they say live-action 1381 01:01:14,700 --> 01:01:11,950 role-playing its yeah people enjoy doing 1382 01:01:16,319 --> 01:01:14,710 it they enjoy going and in the morning 1383 01:01:18,479 --> 01:01:16,329 and figuring out what the clues are it's 1384 01:01:20,039 --> 01:01:18,489 like doing the crossword it's this fun 1385 01:01:21,569 --> 01:01:20,049 intellectual thing and they also think 1386 01:01:24,690 --> 01:01:21,579 that part of this amazing thing which is 1387 01:01:26,069 --> 01:01:24,700 saving the world right if you if they 1388 01:01:29,130 --> 01:01:26,079 could actually step back and look at it 1389 01:01:30,839 --> 01:01:29,140 it makes no sense whatsoever that yeah I 1390 01:01:33,299 --> 01:01:30,849 like like I say with everything from 1391 01:01:34,950 --> 01:01:33,309 their perspective it makes perfect sense 1392 01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:34,960 and so you could have tried to figure 1393 01:01:39,989 --> 01:01:38,410 out how do you talk about it from their 1394 01:01:40,489 --> 01:01:39,999 perspective in a way though that makes 1395 01:01:43,019 --> 01:01:40,499 sense 1396 01:01:44,609 --> 01:01:43,029 yeah I think it'll just I think it'll 1397 01:01:46,979 --> 01:01:44,619 just ruin out of steam though yeah 1398 01:01:49,349 --> 01:01:46,989 nothing is coming true right 1399 01:01:53,039 --> 01:01:49,359 doesn't seem like on the low information 1400 01:01:54,989 --> 01:01:53,049 thing like I now consider myself a high 1401 01:01:59,279 --> 01:01:54,999 information person but I think I used to 1402 01:02:01,229 --> 01:01:59,289 be a lower information person or at 1403 01:02:04,049 --> 01:02:01,239 least limited like you have a limited 1404 01:02:05,459 --> 01:02:04,059 set of information you could be very 1405 01:02:09,150 --> 01:02:05,469 high information and then you get a lot 1406 01:02:11,729 --> 01:02:09,160 of information from a very narrow set of 1407 01:02:14,249 --> 01:02:11,739 sources that you could be an expert on 1408 01:02:18,709 --> 01:02:14,259 on everything that Alex Jones talks 1409 01:02:20,940 --> 01:02:18,719 about yeah you can do that I think it's 1410 01:02:22,529 --> 01:02:20,950 just always better to have more 1411 01:02:24,390 --> 01:02:22,539 information you know you can always 1412 01:02:28,229 --> 01:02:24,400 reject the information but I just think 1413 01:02:30,509 --> 01:02:28,239 I'm not like what's your name that's 1414 01:02:33,509 --> 01:02:30,519 just like oh I'm open to every idea I'm 1415 01:02:36,979 --> 01:02:33,519 not open to every idea but I will look 1416 01:02:39,569 --> 01:02:36,989 at sources and consider you know like 1417 01:02:41,690 --> 01:02:39,579 questions of media literacy now or I 1418 01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:41,700 didn't question any of that stuff like 1419 01:02:46,890 --> 01:02:44,170 well I can't looked up the story of 1420 01:02:48,779 --> 01:02:46,900 rinse after I stopped believing in 1421 01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:48,789 conspiracy theorists and that's just the 1422 01:02:54,749 --> 01:02:50,890 oh my god what a [\h__\h] show 1423 01:02:59,670 --> 01:02:54,759 okay Jeff French yeah and some weird 1424 01:03:01,319 --> 01:02:59,680 stuff and uh so I think one of the 1425 01:03:04,549 --> 01:03:01,329 aspects of coming out of the rabbit hole 1426 01:03:08,099 --> 01:03:04,559 also is that I pay more attention to 1427 01:03:11,190 --> 01:03:08,109 where am I getting my media I constantly 1428 01:03:14,370 --> 01:03:11,200 am looking stuff up like if I see 1429 01:03:17,099 --> 01:03:14,380 something that I just you know rings a 1430 01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:17,109 bell or just kind of tugs at me the 1431 01:03:21,809 --> 01:03:19,930 wrong way I like I'll have 20 or 30 tabs 1432 01:03:23,489 --> 01:03:21,819 open in my browser at all times because 1433 01:03:26,910 --> 01:03:23,499 I'm looking stuff up constantly 1434 01:03:28,799 --> 01:03:26,920 I follow Snopes on Facebook just so I 1435 01:03:33,690 --> 01:03:28,809 have a constant stream of what the 1436 01:03:36,359 --> 01:03:33,700 latest like Snopes things are and so I'm 1437 01:03:38,219 --> 01:03:36,369 like and I try to like get all that 1438 01:03:42,469 --> 01:03:38,229 stuff in my social media so I'm 1439 01:03:45,989 --> 01:03:42,479 constantly engaged with questions about 1440 01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:45,999 what is this different disinformation is 1441 01:03:51,390 --> 01:03:47,890 this misinformation is this good 1442 01:03:53,609 --> 01:03:51,400 information that kind of thing and so ya 1443 01:03:56,759 --> 01:03:53,619 know it's this great like just checking 1444 01:03:58,529 --> 01:03:56,769 no just checking things but having lots 1445 01:04:00,059 --> 01:03:58,539 of information coming in I try to look 1446 01:04:02,309 --> 01:04:00,069 at lots of different news sources like I 1447 01:04:05,940 --> 01:04:02,319 look at Fox News and I look at CNN I 1448 01:04:08,809 --> 01:04:05,950 look at Breitbart MSNBC so you go look 1449 01:04:11,130 --> 01:04:08,819 at all the information so that you know 1450 01:04:12,779 --> 01:04:11,140 you know and not only what's real in the 1451 01:04:15,509 --> 01:04:12,789 world but also what other people think 1452 01:04:18,150 --> 01:04:15,519 is real in the world yeah that's you 1453 01:04:19,650 --> 01:04:18,160 know that's a good part it reminds me of 1454 01:04:22,739 --> 01:04:19,660 a point in your book where you talk 1455 01:04:27,089 --> 01:04:22,749 about the Trump making fun of the 1456 01:04:28,740 --> 01:04:27,099 disabled reporter and refresh my memory 1457 01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:28,750 it wasn't that he was 1458 01:04:33,660 --> 01:04:30,730 maybe he wasn't really doing that is 1459 01:04:36,930 --> 01:04:33,670 that it it is unclear but it was one of 1460 01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:36,940 these issues where the the people who 1461 01:04:40,230 --> 01:04:38,770 are not fans of Trump they think it was 1462 01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:40,240 like really obvious like he was the guy 1463 01:04:46,710 --> 01:04:43,690 who he had a camera is called a Gruffalo 1464 01:04:48,930 --> 01:04:46,720 or something a disease that makes it 1465 01:04:52,770 --> 01:04:48,940 waste his limbs and so his arms were 1466 01:04:54,630 --> 01:04:52,780 twisted and Trump was kind of making a a 1467 01:04:57,480 --> 01:04:54,640 kind of gesture where his hands were 1468 01:05:01,080 --> 01:04:57,490 flopping around that looked like it was 1469 01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:01,090 he was mimicking this guy ya know and 1470 01:05:04,470 --> 01:05:02,890 the Liberals think that you know this 1471 01:05:05,790 --> 01:05:04,480 was his Trump being a horrible evil 1472 01:05:07,380 --> 01:05:05,800 people and there's there's a meme that 1473 01:05:09,950 --> 01:05:07,390 goes around that says like I can't 1474 01:05:13,260 --> 01:05:09,960 understand why this wasn't the end of it 1475 01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:13,270 he did this horrible thing why didn't 1476 01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:15,490 that just end it but all the Trump 1477 01:05:21,420 --> 01:05:18,450 supporters they say that's been debunked 1478 01:05:24,210 --> 01:05:21,430 so in their minds it was just this kind 1479 01:05:26,100 --> 01:05:24,220 of is fake news thing from the 1480 01:05:28,890 --> 01:05:26,110 mainstream media and they cite the fact 1481 01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:28,900 that he actually made very very similar 1482 01:05:35,730 --> 01:05:31,410 hand movement when he was making fun of 1483 01:05:37,230 --> 01:05:35,740 Ted Cruz okay either say Oh Ted Cruz 1484 01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:37,240 doesn't know what he's talking about and 1485 01:05:42,300 --> 01:05:38,770 he was waving his hands around in the 1486 01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:42,310 same way and so they they they they pass 1487 01:05:46,620 --> 01:05:45,010 it off as just being something that he 1488 01:05:48,330 --> 01:05:46,630 does sometimes whenever he's making fun 1489 01:05:51,900 --> 01:05:48,340 of anybody he waves his hands around 1490 01:05:53,610 --> 01:05:51,910 like this and so in the mind of the 1491 01:05:55,380 --> 01:05:53,620 Trump supporter is this thing where they 1492 01:05:57,030 --> 01:05:55,390 think he did nothing wrong 1493 01:06:00,150 --> 01:05:57,040 in the minds of the liberal they think 1494 01:06:02,070 --> 01:06:00,160 is this horrible evil thing and you you 1495 01:06:04,170 --> 01:06:02,080 never get one side understanding where 1496 01:06:07,020 --> 01:06:04,180 the other side is coming from the Trump 1497 01:06:12,060 --> 01:06:07,030 supporters think that the liberals are 1498 01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:12,070 being duped by the mainstream media yeah 1499 01:06:18,300 --> 01:06:14,730 the liberals think the Trump supporters 1500 01:06:20,250 --> 01:06:18,310 just here brainwashed idiots because 1501 01:06:21,690 --> 01:06:20,260 they they believe that it was fake news 1502 01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:21,700 when he owned their mines it obviously 1503 01:06:26,850 --> 01:06:24,250 wasn't I mean if you go to us if you go 1504 01:06:30,390 --> 01:06:26,860 to Snopes and look it up and they mark 1505 01:06:33,180 --> 01:06:30,400 it as unclear like like partially true 1506 01:06:36,330 --> 01:06:33,190 or dubious if you go to Pawlenty fact 1507 01:06:37,650 --> 01:06:36,340 there they have a similar assessment you 1508 01:06:41,220 --> 01:06:37,660 know I think that you know he probably 1509 01:06:42,330 --> 01:06:41,230 was mocking in but it's it's hard to 1510 01:06:45,660 --> 01:06:42,340 tell 1511 01:06:47,340 --> 01:06:45,670 there's something called the need for a 1512 01:06:51,030 --> 01:06:47,350 cognitive closure that I recently 1513 01:06:56,850 --> 01:06:51,040 learned about and some people have a 1514 01:06:59,370 --> 01:06:56,860 real short timeframe where they will 1515 01:07:01,170 --> 01:06:59,380 allow themselves to feel like there's no 1516 01:07:03,540 --> 01:07:01,180 closure on the subject and then other 1517 01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:03,550 people have very open amount of time 1518 01:07:07,830 --> 01:07:05,770 like you know the jury's out on that I 1519 01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:07,840 don't know is an acceptable answer to 1520 01:07:13,350 --> 01:07:09,970 some of those people and so I'm okay 1521 01:07:15,210 --> 01:07:13,360 with like I don't have a serious need 1522 01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:15,220 for cognitive closure on stuff like that 1523 01:07:21,540 --> 01:07:17,170 it's okay that it's kind of fuzzy and 1524 01:07:24,290 --> 01:07:21,550 yeah that's just okay that fake fake 1525 01:07:29,700 --> 01:07:24,300 news thing though one of the things that 1526 01:07:32,310 --> 01:07:29,710 really bothers me about how that cat has 1527 01:07:35,460 --> 01:07:32,320 become part of the I guess you would say 1528 01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:35,470 like lexicon or something is that it 1529 01:07:42,420 --> 01:07:40,330 just allows people to respond to 1530 01:07:44,970 --> 01:07:42,430 something they don't like with just that 1531 01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:44,980 term and there's absolutely no critical 1532 01:07:50,340 --> 01:07:48,130 thinking at all happening when people 1533 01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:50,350 just say oh yeah yeah people people say 1534 01:07:57,840 --> 01:07:54,850 yeah that's been debunked they'll say oh 1535 01:08:00,480 --> 01:07:57,850 well Snopes has been debunked so if you 1536 01:08:07,380 --> 01:08:00,490 say any any article from Snopes Snopes 1537 01:08:11,220 --> 01:08:07,390 as a whole as being anything meta Bank 1538 01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:11,230 has been debunked writers websites have 1539 01:08:16,410 --> 01:08:14,770 you as some horrible person and well 1540 01:08:18,750 --> 01:08:16,420 we've been talking for over I don't know 1541 01:08:20,099 --> 01:08:18,760 so this has been great though it's been 1542 01:08:21,329 --> 01:08:20,109 very very interesting and it's been 1543 01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:21,339 really good catching up with you again 1544 01:08:25,380 --> 01:08:23,290 there's anything you want to finish out 1545 01:08:30,870 --> 01:08:25,390 with you I think any points you think we 1546 01:08:33,210 --> 01:08:30,880 didn't cover no I love the new podcasts 1547 01:08:35,190 --> 01:08:33,220 they're entertaining and I've tried to 1548 01:08:40,079 --> 01:08:35,200 share with my conspiracy friends because 1549 01:08:42,150 --> 01:08:40,089 I think it's it's you know the topic is 1550 01:08:44,460 --> 01:08:42,160 right in their ballpark and I think you 1551 01:08:46,110 --> 01:08:44,470 get some good well tell them they can 1552 01:08:48,120 --> 01:08:46,120 come on the podcast yeah 1553 01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:48,130 the most eloquent one of your friends 1554 01:08:52,669 --> 01:08:50,650 and send them over or anybody who will 1555 01:08:54,939 --> 01:08:52,679 come on the podcast 1556 01:08:57,079 --> 01:08:54,949 to talk to any of them okay sounds good 1557 01:08:57,710 --> 01:08:57,089 all right Willie well thank you very